ading or reinstalling a package.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
come up with a solution how to handle eclass-generated
> dependency changes then?
>
> I'd loathe to have to do identical revision bumps for, say, all perl-
> module.eclass consumers...
perl-cleaner is rather strong evidence that the Perl situation needs a
major change anyway...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
you sure you don't just want to target this at people who
have the old version installed, instead?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
migrated change?
Yes, this header is backwards. It's a message to be displayed to users
who have the old version, not a message to be displayed to users who
install the new version for the first time ever and who have never used
the old version.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
How accurate is "around"? Obviously we'd need to introduce a user
configuration option so different users could set appropriate values
for their needs.
Seriously though, all this complexity is just highlighting that dates
are a really bad way of deciding when a news item should expire, and
that if we need anything, it's more Display-If conditions.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
manglers having to use heuristics when explicit information
could easily be provided by developers but isn't is the source of at
least 27.4% of Gentoo's problems.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
wyers I've spoken to about a similar issue seemed to think it
wasn't that simple.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
lications". This was sufficient for the highly paid
lawyers who looked at it to recommend not redistributing Nauty as part
of the GAP computer algebra system, because computer algebra could
conceivably be used for blowing stuff up.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
rt of thing that could go horribly wrong... I
didn't design versionator to work with arbitrary messy stuff since the
main use is in manipulating Gentoo PV versions. Where are these other
versions coming from?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 07:42:31 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> >+if [[ "${EAPI}" -lt 6 ]]; then
>
> EAPI is not a number. The next one we'll call gray-grizzly just to
> prove the point.
Careful, you're turning into me.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e devmanual? Or maybe
> the Vim project page?
One potential issue is help files: any Vim plugin that comes with
documentation needs a little script (which requires Vim to be installed)
to be run in pkg_postinst.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
es are
implementation-related, not a fundamental problem.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
; the performance hit involved and due to the purpose of the command
> itself.
Have you profiled this? It shouldn't be slow if implemented correctly.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
on. Which would result in users requesting yet another option
> to disable this.
Eh, that's a Portage performance problem, not a package manager
performance problem.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:58:13 -0400
"William L. Thomson Jr." wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 00:49:57 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:39:33 -0400
> > "William L. Thomson Jr." wrote:
> > > The two ways are not the same, and
Sets exist because people keep saying "let's have sets!" without
agreeing on what sets actually are or how they are to be used. Sets
remain half-baked because it turns out they don't make consistent sense
in different contexts when you give them a non-superficial amount of
thought.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
se.
The sensible thing to do is ban it, and additionally ban use? ( )
inside || and ^^ (if we've not done that already...).
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 16:14:09 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 13:01:39 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 13:49:56 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 12:26:59 +0200
> > > Ulrich Mueller wr
ying special cases like || ( foo? ( ... ) bar? ( ... ) ) . The
original reason was that old versions of Portage would simply remove
unmet "flag? ( )" blocks internally. It was kept in EAPI 0 because
stuff in the tree used it back then.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
, this is valid.
>
> media-libs/tiff:3[abi_x86_32,jpeg,zlib,-cxx]
And this is one of many reasons "sets in profiles" isn't going to work:
we don't really know what most of this stuff means...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 19:30:02 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:04:35 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:55:45 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > The guarantee comes from the fact that the output is always in the
> &g
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:55:45 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> The guarantee comes from the fact that the output is always in the
> space of all possible inputs from the user. So, if some output will
> kill a kitten, so does some input.
USE=minimal
USE=mips
USE=-ssl
--
Ciaran McCreesh
on producing good error messages
so the user can figure the problem out, not on producing bad solutions
that will confuse things even more.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:30:10 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:22:26 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:19:04 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:13:57 +0100
> > > Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:19:04 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:13:57 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:07:00 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > > The best way to convince me is through valid examples.
> &
entire proposal is that it's still in "well I
can't think of how it could possibly go wrong" territory. We need a
formal proof that it's sound. History has shown that if something can
be abused by Gentoo developers, it will be abused...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 20:10:12 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> I'm sure Ciaran will love to elaborate ;-).
It's doomed. Even if you get it to work, which you won't, it won't
survive ten seconds contact with the enemy.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ffectively a fork.
> This would require a multi-dimensional array of approx 7 packages
> (today) versus however many ebuilds are currently in Portage for each
> editor. Do I see any volunteers for compatibility testing for all
> current and future VI-family editors and plugins on all current and
> future ebuilds on all arches (small and large endian) and various USE
> flags?
You appear to be confusing vi and vim.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
no need to do so.
Good luck figuring out how to encode grounding in SAT...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:38:01 -0400
"Walter Dnes" wrote:
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:54:59PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote
> > - Have a separate anyvimishthing directory, and make both vim and
> > neovim look there, and only make plugins that have been tested to
> >
or things that work with three vim
> implementations?
If that ever happens, which is fairly unlikely, then revisit the
problem then, rather than adding unnecessary complexity now just in
case.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
t;
> - making eselect module for user to rule that.
- Have a separate anyvimishthing directory, and make both vim and
neovim look there, and only make plugins that have been tested to work
with both install to that directory.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Wed, 31 May 2017 21:02:24 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> No, it can't. That's the whole point. The algorithm must be defined so
> that it is always predictable independently of order
So what's this mysterious algorithm then?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Wed, 31 May 2017 09:35:04 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On śro, 2017-05-31 at 08:24 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Wed, 31 May 2017 08:55:17 +0200
> > Michał Górny wrote:
> > > For example:
> > >
> > > foo? ( bar )
> > >
> > &
On Wed, 31 May 2017 08:55:17 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> For example:
>
> foo? ( bar )
>
> would mean 'if you have USE=foo, then USE=bar is enabled as well'.
What about "if bar cannot be enabled, then turn foo off"?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Tue, 30 May 2017 10:46:54 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Tue, 30 May 2017 09:22:45 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 May 2017 09:42:45 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > Oh crap, this requires to solve SAT.
> >
> > The main pr
exponential behaviour exist, not that those instances
will occur in the application area you care about.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
t obvious and shortest answer to
fixing Gnome resolution errors was to set USE=mips because that
disabled a whole load of browser dependencies...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
#x27;t
necessarily a problem, because resolution isn't even in NP yet we're
still managing to spit out decent answers most of the time. Rather, the
difficulty lies in spitting out a *good* solution to the problem from
a user's perspective, and that's something that can't be done without
extremely high quality inputs.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 29 May 2017 21:42:33 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On pon, 2017-05-29 at 20:24 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 May 2017 17:33:13 +0200
> > Michał Górny wrote:
> > > For a long time we seem to be missing appropriate tools to handle
> > > USE f
ve you implemented a prototype to
show that you can actually fix those problems?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
currently
exists, rather than the mythical perfect Gentoo Java team that existed
ten years ago and which will rise again soon, which is what William
meant.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
It's bad enough that we have to parse XML inside the package mangler for
optional data. Adding YAML (with all its format bugs: YAML files
created with libyaml can't be read by syck, and vice-versa) for files
that the package mangler has to read is even worse.
Plain text *is* a standard format.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 22:37:49 +0100
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:30:40 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:22:54 +0100
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > Indeed, according to pms.git commit log, the rule was laxed
> > >
able behaviour from
developers, and we deliberately chose not to go the SHALL, MUST NOT
route because of the added cost of developing a specification that's
safe from hostile implementers.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:49:15 +0100
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:17:43 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:12:04 +0100
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > However, retroactively adding new rules
> >
> > Which, a
e way of progress.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
be actively improving the
quality of the tree so that progress can be made, not fighting a losing
battle to stop it from getting even worse.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
too. At least with all
> currently approved EAPIs.
Please stop. PMS was not written with the kind of resources needed to
deal with people deliberately trying to find loopholes.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e manager tries to use it, that is; the rebuilds aren't
> triggered unless you're using portage.
The point is to specify dependencies declaratively. A dependency
expresses a dependency, not an action. If you can't express the kind of
dependency you need, then we need either labels or another *DEPEND
variable to take care of it, not a bodge.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
;:=" in DEPEND: it varies
> > depending on your "with-bdeps" setting.
> >
>
> This is why we can't have nice things.
Actually you can't have nice things because the labels proposal was
voted down for "being invented by the wrong people".
--
Ciaran McCreesh
think it's not important, but if Gentoo finally gets into the habit of
ongoing improvements, the tree will slowly get better rather than
worse over time.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
gt; more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> special exception for "virtual"''
It's not a "must". Also, putting that rule in and having the package
mangler enforce it can have unintend
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 05:56:56 +1300
Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2016 17:23:58 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>
> > Because it isn't... Are set names atoms? Are package names without
> > an associated category atoms?
>
> If I use the content of man 5 ebu
On Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:28:12 +0100
Marc Schiffbauer wrote:
> "atom" is a well defined term in the gentoo world, so why not use it?
Because it isn't... Are set names atoms? Are package names without an
associated category atoms?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 29 Dec 2016 16:44:12 +0100
Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 22:31:19 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > We made a deliberate decision not to use the word "atom" in PMS
> > because it means subtly different things in different contexts.
>
>
e made a deliberate decision not to use the word "atom" in PMS because
it means subtly different things in different contexts.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e social contract if Gentoo depended
upon that.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:24:29 -0500
Mike Gilbert wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:02:48 -0500
> > Mike Gilbert wrote:
> >> The devmanual states:
> >>
> >> The name section should contain
lid.
>
> https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html
>
>
> Why are uppercase characters strongly discouraged?
>
> Wouldn't it make sense to follow upstream's naming convention?
What's upstream's naming convention for Firefox?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
involvement with
Github as a company is limited to them buying me an awful lot of
free booze once. I think you might be seeing conspiracies in the
wrong place...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
articular time window had to sign
it, but anyone who started before didn't.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
so it
doesn't really specify anything at all.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 17:50:58 -0400
"Anthony G. Basile" wrote:
> On 8/14/16 5:45 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 23:35:58 +0200
> > Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> >> During the latest Council meeting it was determined to set up a new
and how is it related to a Project? Shouldn't
there be a GLEP to define what a Working Group is first?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 17:57:59 +0300
Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> I strongly believe that it's important to have such a use case as
> Steam work problem-free in Gentoo.
Steam isn't a use case, it's a program.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ills will be obsolete in five years. If you are
learning general principles and problem solving, the particular
language being used is much less important.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ible failures (which don't get fixed, and which
lead to occasional weirdness) are better than visible failures (which
must be fixed) is an odd one... Postel has a lot to answer for.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
27;s OK to be
wrong sometimes (and this is why code review exists), but it's not OK
to continue to argue that you were right out of stubbornness.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
of the
package, and then remove the old one (and if you think about it for a
few seconds, you can see that it *has* to be this way). If an error or
ctrl+c occurs at the wrong point, both versions remain installed, and
importantly, there is a safe way to recover from this.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ed versions simultaneously.
> Do we have any test suits for portage (as the most popular PM
> implementation) for such cases? I doubt this, I can find none. I'm
> not sure if such tests are implemented in other PM test suits too.
Portage doesn't exactly have many tests...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:23:48 +0300
Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 14:57:36 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:41:56 +0300
> > Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> [...]
> > > I see no point in trashing ebuilds with dead code that will nev
gned the way it was out of necessity.
> I see no point in trashing ebuilds with dead code that will never
> be used. Though if there will be a PMS or eclass function with
> "proper" implementation, I don't mind, since extra code will be
> moved from ebuild elsewhere.
Slots are not the only way in which you can end up with multiple
installed versions of the same package. Another way is if there's a
fatal error during certain parts of the upgrade process.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
have that flag enabled, and
suggests you either install repository/kde or disable that USE flag so
that it can continue.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:25:08 +0200
Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> I would tend to agree with those who have written that coordinating
> work across repos is kind of a pain.
How do you know? What is your experience in the area of coordinating
work across repos in a Gentoo-style distribution?
--
have small numbers of users
are in personal repositories which everyone can see". Libraries and
packages that start to be used by many people get moved to one of the
central repositories; one way to tell that this needs to be done is
when it looks like the issues you think could happen actually start to
happen.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
us in bug 353624 [1] and in the gentoo-dev
> mailing list [2,3].
Really, that policy predates REQUIRED_USE, and even EAPIs... In the
olden days, the rule was that USE flags were for things that were
optional, and that if something wasn't optional, then it shouldn't be
controlled by USE flags.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
he first error.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Fri, 27 May 2016 00:28:35 +0200
rindeal wrote:
> 1) what are they?
A horrible QA violation.
> 2) why are they used?
Because some people like to feel special...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
to
> "pkg_config" and in contrast to "src_test" which runs within the
> working directory. Then "emerge --test" could run it.
For various technical reasons to do with the spec and package manglers
sometimes using phase function names with the src_ or pkg_ stripped
off, calling it that would be a huge pain.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
essments under the title of 'code review' in the
> style he does.
If you're writing the kind of code that results in you being subjected
to scathing criticism for breaking metadata generation for the entire
tree, then discouraging you from contributing can only be good for the
distribution...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
pletely called for and appropriate. No vulgarity,
> insults, or demeaning words were used. How would you have responded
> professionally?
It's important to remember that Gentoo is run by volunteers. Expecting
a professional standard when it comes to the quality of commit
criticism is unfair.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
value of source code from a position of unearned authority. This
is against the code of conduct, and is bad for the community!
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sun, 8 May 2016 01:25:58 -0400
Göktürk Yüksek wrote:
> Display-If-Installed: app-admin/lastpass
Every version, forever, even for new installs made next year?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
h.
Why reverse engineer it? It's all documented.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
a problem. Being honest where
users or Phoronix could pick up on it is bad PR. Let's not create a
toxic perception of the state of the tree.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e LC variables to sane values. A few vocal
annoying users hate this, and patch it out...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
y to -r4 before pushing my changes.
>
> Personally I don't think that's necessary. The "-r bump on dep change"
> argument is a defence against installer limitations and the
> replication of changes to users.
No it isn't.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
insist upon using < dependencies
anyway...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
ology problem. The problem is your workflow, not the tools.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:33:57 -0500
Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> Followup question, which of these is less dumb?
>
> Option 1: berkdb? ( >=sys-libs/db-4:* Option 2: berkdb? ( || ( sys-libs/db:4.2 ... sys-libs/db:5.3 ) )
Best option goes leftmost in ||.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
s
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:48:29 -0500
Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> Is there a way to say "give me any 4.x or 5.x slot"?
No. Slots are meaningless strings and do not support any comparison
except equality.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
> Although, it is only if user has successfully cloned/synced the
> repo ;) Which is hardcore quest when you're living in, say, Syria,
> Egypt, Somalia, or something like that. Or, if you're, say, in
> transsiberian train ride for a week.
Perhaps there is a better choice of d
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:13:29 +0100
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> > On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:22:40 +0100
> > Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> >> The previous time I wanted to post a news item with USE
> >> dependencies,
this is ok I hope.
It's not really clear what the EAPI for the news directory is...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 01:25:53 +0200
hasufell wrote:
> Also, my package manager chokes on it. Repoman not, so that looks
> like a bug.
s/Repoman/Portage/
Portage will quite happily let you specify KEYWORDS=":)".
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
tch "${PATCHES[@]}"' when proper patches do not
> fit in what you call 'all the useful features': I haven't seen any,
> so that I know where to stand on using that feature or not. It is
> simply inferior and deemed unfixable until next EAPI.
It would be nice if eutils defined epatch to die for EAPI 6...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 20:00:11 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 13:44:30 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> [...]
> > > - why should I ever want eapi6 src_prepare instead of
> > > base_src_prepare ?
> >
> > Well base.eclass is suppose
ing a weird, overly clever
and highly fragile collection of weirdness that's designed to mostly
accept any dodgy input, with one that just gets you to give it a sane
input to begin with.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 14:49:36 +0200
hasufell wrote:
> You can apply the patches post_unpack or post_src_prepare witht hooks.
> What's the problem?
Running autorecrap.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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Description: PGP signature
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