Hi Gilbert
Just catching up with some earlier posts of yours.
I want to state that, it is not logically possible for
a strident anti-casteist to be simultaneously a
casteist just as it is not logically possible for a
strident anti-racist to be a racist. In this
illustration, the anti-casteist
Gilbert Lawrence writing on this topic ( April,17 ) has raised quite a
number of points. However, I shall not bore my fellow Goanetters and shall
rerply to his following two statements.
GL writes: So I am disappointed that you should bring in caste in the
efforts of the priestsLooking
Hi Gilbert
There are so many examples of what I would ever so
politely refer to as your home-spun 'facts' that do
not stand scrutiny at all. This is not the time to
list at least ten examples of this that I could
readily trot out-- therefore, I will only intersperse
a few of my comments within
Hi Antonio,
It is always a pleasure and helpful to be educated by someone who knows. It is
only through such dialog of specific facts (not exaggerations or innuendos)
that we can know the past and appreciate the present.
I do not have a bone in this fight about caste. With what you state,
--- Rajan P. Parrikar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, you can. Just as you can have race
without racism, nation without nationalism,
Islam without Islamism...you get the idea.
It is perlexing that these simple matters
are as yet unknown to you.
--
Hi Gilbert
1) 114 million Dalits in India indicate that they do
not find their imposed identity liberating even as
they seek the crumbs made available to them for being
low caste people. Instead, they vigorously resort to
the courts to demand their human rights as equals in a
free and democratic
On April,14, Gilbert Lawrence wrote on the Goanet : ''The Catholic Church is
the institution that gave the lower caste and lower socio-economic Catholic
Goans, education.''
This statement does not appear to reflect complete truth as far as imparting
education to Goan masses is
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 19:11:22 -0400
From: Chris Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...if Cornel's statistics are anywhere near accurate
(5% of the pop. being Brahmin -- of which even less
are casteists), then the problem we have is very minor
and doesn't deserve a jingoistic approach.
If you insist on an
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree that caste, trap an individual in them for
life. So does the pigment of one's skin, if one
lives in a 'white' society. So does one's religion if
one belongs to a minority group.
I always thought race was genetically determined and
religion a
My dear Gilbert
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Catholic Church (that some of the chest-thumpers
condemn) is the institution that gave the lower
caste and lower socio-economic Catholic Goans
education, personal character and (drive for)
achievement,
CORNEL: Kindly let me
Hi Cornel,
Please provide us the name and places of the institutions where your
grandfather, father and mother received their secondary schooling and perhaps
college?
Can you also tell us the name and places of the institutions of your school and
college education?
Thanks in anticipation.
The
It is embarrassing to see people once again trying to
defend the caste system by equating it with race and
nationality. It is telling that some of the same
people are also in favor of other types of narrow
domestic walls within India. Perhaps, Narayan and
Romlo will join Goanet one of these days
I agree that caste, trap an individual in them for life.
So does the pigment of one's skin, if one lives in a 'white' society.
So does one's religion if one belongs to a minority group.
The secret to overcome the trap as Mario puts it is, education, personal
character and achievement,
The
Can you have caste without casteism? Is it possible to be proud of
one's caste affiliations (based on accidents of birth) without feeling
superior or inferior about the same?
It is not very convincing to me when people who are critical of
casteism get accused of being casteist themselves. Those
To Goanet -
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote:
Can you have caste without casteism?
Yes, you can. Just as you can have race
without racism, nation without nationalism,
Islam without Islamism...you get the idea.
It is perlexing that these simple matters
are as yet unknown to you.
Warm regards,
r
To be fair, it's not Bamons alone who have a monopoly over casteism. While
they may have got the ball rolling, today this ideology is more widespread.
It appears to the so-called 'upper' caste. (Feeling 'superior' to someone
else is always flattering!)
Chardo and Kshatriya casteism is palpable in
Hi Rajan
While it is possible to believe in the idea of caste
without linking it to casteism, I suggest that such a
view may be highly questionable and I explain why
below.
If we ask ourselves when would someone claim to
believe in caste? It could, in UNLIKELY circumstances,
be when one has been
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote:
Can you have caste without casteism?
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rajan P. Parrikar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, you can. Just as you can have race without
racism, nation without nationalism, Islam without
Islamism...you get the idea.
It is
Hi Fred,
The answer to both your questions below is a resounding YES!
Being 'Brown' or 'Black' (accident of birth) in a 'White' society makes one
belong to a minority. The same applies to religion. But one does not have to be
prejudiced / racist / casteist; nor does the other have to deny
Cornel--
If your statistics are to be believed that only 5% of the population is
Brahmin and of those 5% many would NOT be casteists (how many?), then it
appears to be a very marginal minority that could safely be ignored.
Assimilation, through intermarriage and cognitive consonance will take
Mario--
I made a good faith attempt to explain the caste proclivities in Goa. I
believe in due time these differences will dissipate. In any event, if
Cornel's statistics are anywhere near accurate (5% of the pop. being
rahmin -- of which even less are casteists), then the problem we have
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:08:51 -0400
From: Chris Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was only after the Portuguese settled in Goa and
converted the Hindus that the cristaos became what
they are--but they did not forget their
hierarchy--which was ingrained in their psyche for
untold generations and
Fred,
The short answer to your question is - Yes! There is no destructiveness in
Caste.
However, there IS destructiveness in Casteism (prejudice). And one is casteist
towards members of their own caste / class (and also other caste/class) as we
often see among Goans and on goanet.
The
Hi Chris
I'll be brief: I have never said that most or all
Goans are casteist. Indeed, in one of my posts, I had
indicated that an estimate of about 5% of the
population were deemed to be Brahmin let alone the
Chardos, and of these, many would NOT be casteist.
My quarrel is with the continuity
Dear Mario the all-knowing of Goan caste systems despite having lived
in the backwaters of Indore,
Yep, Mario who snaps a finger and expects all Goans will get rid of
the caste system.
How about Mario getting rid of the Russians discriminating against
Goans in Morjim, a much more recent 5 year
Mario--
I know your heart is in the right place but you and Cornel should look into
this with the proper perspective. It helps if one was born and brought up
at least for a while in Goa because only then do you totally breathe and
savor Goanness the way it was meant to be...
In the first
Cornel is possibly closer to the truth. The problem is that he's just
in a hopeless minority. The vast majority posting on this list -- the
articulate self-appointed spokespersons of Goanity and all its values
-- owe alleigance to 'elite' and 'upper' caste perspectives.
It is therefore
From, Chris Vaz chrisvaz at optonline.net
Sun Apr 6 09:36:42 PDT 2008
Growing up in Goa in the fifties, I was never exposed
to any spectacles of such persecution.
Mario responds:
Chris,
I did not grow up in Goa but I have personally
observed some pretty nasty manifestations of caste
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