trick.
However, no matter what you do, you simply *cannot* end the last line of
a column or page with a hyphen. So IMHSHO your question does not arise.
But I will defer to Peter. Maybe Doug also has an opinion.
Robert Thorsby
Hi again Branden,
I'll let others respond regarding the morality of dangling hyphens on
the last line. :-)
On 30/8/24 16:38, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
At 2024-08-30T16:29:03+1000, Robert Thorsby wrote:
I wouldn't call myself a typographer but I refuse to allow hyphens to
break, u
never be able to eliminate the requirement for human intervention.
Scientific tools will assist us but they won't replace us.
Robert Thorsby
On 24/12/22 12:26, Richard Morse wrote:
On Dec 23, 2022, at 3:49 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
I've been curious: how much use do you see of groff outside of man pages?
I realize I’m just one person, but my use of groff (and Heirloom for using
useful fonts) is entirely outside of man pages…
Like
y have to use ".nop" if you need indenting to save your sanity.
you can use loops as well.
My 2 cents to an interesting discussion.
Robert Thorsby
Typo \^[Answers] should be \*[Answers]
There may be more.
Rotten debilitating medical condition is to blame.
Robt
On 15/12/23 13:33, Robert Thorsby wrote:
.ds Answers marker
...
.ie '\^[Answers]'marker' \{\
. etc etc etc
On 15/12/23 14:14, Damian McGuckin wrote:
There are times when I prefer to use other tools like simple Python to
do some of the harder work such as creating alternate/multiple documents
from some master depending on the scenario.
A lot of the documentation for Documenters Workbench 3.3, the mo
On 17/12/23 06:57, Peter Schaffter wrote:
On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, Mike wrote:
Is there a website where the various document layouts and visual
capabilities of groff are displayed?
If such a website were to exist, it should be divided into
categories by the primary macro set used, with an additio
Merry Christmas Folks,
There has been a bit of discussion recently regarding the uploading of
examples of [gt]roff in action. So I munged an example from one of my
documents.
The attached PDF file shows the output where I have run text to the
right of a left-aligned EPS image. The file itsel
On 22/12/23 04:25, Deri wrote:
The example pdfs in the "doc" section of the groff release are good examples
of what can be achieved with groff. Particularly Peter's mom examples which
come with the source code as well.
They are excellent documents, and if I had been starting out in groff a
urely a method
of typesetting technical documents. Why should we munge small caps from
standard fonts (and earn Doug's ire) when there are genuine small caps
that we should be using when we need them.
Of course, Gaius Mulley's superb dropcaps macro would need revision. :-)
Robert Thorsby
of my language, but this
has to stop.
Robert Thorsby
On 9/1/24 16:10, Dave Kemper wrote:
On 1/8/24, Robert Thorsby wrote:
My apologies to the list for the intemperance of my language, but this
has to stop.
"This" being novices posting suggestions without understanding every
nook and cranny of groff? I couldn't disagree more.
On 11/1/24 01:28, Alexis wrote:
Can you be more specific about how the proposed change renders your
documents and tooling unworkable? I'm genuinely curious.
Providing a minimal working example would be quite helpful.
Maybe you'd also like to share your understanding as to "why such
'fault' occur
ise
that the cheque is in the mail." and I find myself track-kerning I feel
that I may have become a little too fastidious.
Robert Thorsby
I am always doing what I cannot do yet in order to learn how to do it.
-- Vincent van Gogh, letter to Anthon van Rappard 18 August 1885
Good morning Branden, Tadziu,
On 25/7/24 11:10, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
At 2024-07-24T22:27:31+0200, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
a "margin" measures an extent of whitespace (or "negative space"),
whereas the `sp` request positions the _text baseline_,
The first is correct and the second incorre
On 24/10/16 05:52:41, Gerard Lally wrote:
Is it possible to lay out a page, as in the attached sample file,
using *roff? I'm about to commit myself to learning troff and friends
more thoroughly. Before I start I'd like to have a broad idea of its
limitations.
I don't need a how-to, detaile
On 24/10/16 08:26:36, Gerard Lally wrote:
Well the sample is meaningless; I searched for a "desktop publishing"
image and chose that one at random as a reasonably complex example of
what I had in mind. Good typography is one of the reasons I am hoping
to standardize on *roff. It's going to b
On 31/12/16 07:01:05, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
>> > Whilst reading the info pages on Groff I came upon the following
>>
>> What following? You have forgotten to add a quote.
>
> He refers to doc/groff.texi line 5060. The wording is questionable
> indeed.
Oh. I would have never expected that Lar
On 27/04/17 07:36:56, Doug McIlroy wrote:
I suggest that irrelevant attributes and constructions like 2d should
be errors. Any previously working code that such a tightening of
syntax might reject will be easy to fix.
What do folks think about this issue? Depending on response, I may
try t
On 25/08/17 03:23:25, Keith Marshall wrote:
So, presumably gimp is not emitting such malformed records. If you
examine the gnu.eps file, as distributed with groff itself, you may
observe that it doesn't have any %%BeginData record at all, so such a
record is, apparently, unnecessary.
At t
On 30/09/17 01:47:53, mikkel meinike wrote:
Thanks for leading me on the right track Robert Thorsby for pointing
my attention to the BeginData line
Now that I have retired I no longer feel a compelling urge to take the
credit for the work of others. It was actually Keith who pointed you
Temperatures here in AU have been in the range 35-45 for the past week
and are forecast to be the same for the next week. So with no
inclination towards serious work I have turned my attention to
rewriting my letterhead shell script, as one does.
My letters carry the date in full -- Thursd
On 26/01/18 01:22:39, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
If you want the following behavior:
.ds DATE*FULL
The updated short date is \*[DATE*SHORT].
Thank you Ralph and Tadziu,
The answer lay in Ralph's suggestion of the .substring request,
combined with good old nested conditionals.
Since the c
On 26/01/18 10:47:12, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> the .substring request, combined with good old nested conditionals.
Or there's a `.while' IIRC. :-)
You most certainly do RC, Ralph.
Didn't occur to me that groff had loops, but I had looked up ``for''
just in case.
That should make it easier
Tadziu asked me to post my solution, so here goes. Essentially, I
searched sequentially for ", "; the successful result gave me their
position in the string. The four levels of search were brought about
by the fact that in the English names for the days of the week three
have 6 characters
On 29/01/18 09:55:08, Peter Schaffter wrote:
Gotta throw my two cents' worth in. Surely the simplest way to write
this (for contemporary groff) is
Worth far more than $0.02. :-)
Robert
On 25/07/18 04:57:13, James K. Lowden wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:26:57 -0500
Blake McBride wrote:
> Then, a few years ago, I thought of generating groff/tbl input
> instead and then calling those tools to generate the final PDF
output.
You're not the only one. https://github.com/jklowde
On 27/03/19 21:12:27, Pierre-Jean Fichet wrote:
I'm looking for an address book compatible with troff. What I'd like
is to automatically fill fields in a troff source. A bit more complex
task would be to create several source files from a list of contacts
(to build a bench of letters, for
On 09/07/19 12:30:56, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
Kirill S Sapelkin wrote on Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 07:19:17PM -0700:
> Could not find a way to automaticaly insert the date at compile
time other than:
>
> .DATE
> .sy date '+%e %B %Y' > dater
> .so dater
> .sy rm dater
Logically, inserting the date a
On 31/03/20 10:16:56, Doug McIlroy wrote:
Does anyone else see the following behavior?
Version 1.22.4 handles \s correctly up to \s39, but truncates a size
of 40 or greater to its first digit.
Good morning Doug,
The info page for my version 1.21 has the following:
`\sN' Set the point size t
On 05/04/20 11:42:37, Larry McVoy wrote:
Doug and I talked about this off line. Doug predates all versions of
roff, he watched it being developed and used it. I think his opinion
matters.
In the message below the "Am I wrong wanting" and the specs are me,
his response is below that.
An
On 14/06/20 14:40:44, John Gardner wrote:
Why are we using Info, again? Was it because of GNU policy? Or is
there a more compelling reason as to why we're maintaining two
different versions of the same documentation?
There are probably two reasons why Doug has referenced info.
First, he may
On 23/07/20 07:12:14, Blake McBride wrote:
I am trying to get Groff working on Windows. I have looked at MinGW,
GnuWin32, and ezwinports. While some provide base Groff, none I can
see support -Tpdf. Is there any package that does support PDF output
on Windows?
Good morning Blake,
You c
On 13/08/20 00:16:36, Marc Chantreux wrote:
is there a way to see the sources of it [the PDF file] somewhere?
Sent privately.
R
OOPPSS
On 14/08/20 09:20:20, Dave Kemper wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, Robert. Was this meant to go to the
list? I see I'm the only recipient.
On 8/11/20, Robert Thorsby wrote:
Sometimes I set oddball papersizes and ps2pdf doesn't like them (so I
replace sPAPE
On 01/11/20 10:07:13, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
G. Branden Robinson wrote on Sun, Nov 01, 2020 at 09:47:14AM +1100:
> To achieve the above, I defined my own chapter macro.
> This is not discouraged in ms, unlike in man(7) and mdoc(7).
... The ability to define macros to tackle the particular needs of
On 20/11/20 09:32:03, Richard Morse wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2020, at 5:11 PM, Heinz-Jürgen Oertel
wrote:
> Can you use pdftk to split the groff output file file afterwards in
pages?
Unfortunately each center’s invoice is a different, arbitrary, number
of pages. The file internally knows when
valuable
contibutions to the groff project; a fact that Werner has acknowledged
more than once.
Really, Eric, is it necessary for you to upset everybody. No wonder you
got chucked off the kernel project.
Robert Thorsby
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On 2007.01.27 03:14 Ted Harding wrote:
My blood-pressure (normally healthily low) has
been rising rapidly over the last few days ...
Gee Ted, aren't you proud that you have taken over from Werner as the
porn king of groff? The rest of us are envious.
:-)
Robert Th
ro is not an option.:-)
TIA,
Robert Thorsby
off...
I apologise if my previous post sounded like a criticism of groff -- it
was not intended to be. However, it is truly frustrating for all
concerned when The Debian Way turns out to be the wrong way because, as
you are aware, The Debian Way does not concede the possibility of error
in itself. :-)
Robert Thorsby
These tide charts (the raw data
for which is produced by David Flater's xtide program) are now
assembled with a shell script into groff files from which superb
postscript is produced.
Today, I use groff for everything, including business letters.
Robert Thorsby
How should I know if it wo
ordance with its man page. In 7.10 the utility does not work at all,
but this is compensated for, to some extent, by the man page which now
doesn't work either. [Try to crop and then resize an image.]
My experience with The Debian Way is not restricted to these two
examples.
Robert Thorsby
save?
Can anyone tell me what is likely to happen? I have no idea how to
create the problem deliberately.
TIA,
Robert Thorsby
ot; mode.
> So you would be back on the rails.
Thanks, Ted. That makes sense. I think I may have been looking for
reasons why such a simple concept wouldn't work.
Isn't reinventing wheels fun?
Robert Thorsby
When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb.
-- Steven M. Haflich
t;third" time)
and groff will produce the output postscript file again, this time as a
guaranteed true reflection of the input file.
Unfortunately, Ted neglected to tell me how I can prevent myself from
stuffing up the input file from the keyboard. Perhaps there are some
things that groff really can't do.
Thanks all,
Robert Thorsby
Money can't buy happiness, but it can certainly
rent it for a couple of hours. -- Anon
since no permanent harm is
> being done by "saving at the wrong time".
Yes. Not being a programmer, I was concerned that I might be getting
carried away with my own cleverness.
Robert Thorsby
Without C we would only have Pasal, Basi, and obol.
, Ted Harding whose post to this mailing list introduced me to "The
\s'-360u'\H'+360u'quick\H'0\s0 brown fox" should be taken out and
publicly flogged. Ted, do you realise how much time you have cost me
with that little gem?
Robert Thorsby
Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself.
-- Simone Weil
stallation software.
> Am I missing something somewhere or does the gv package have
> to be installed manually using an i386 package for the AMD
> Celeron processor?
gv is in Ubuntu's universe/text repository. It should be installed via
the usual "sudo apt-get install gv" c
that my
"Danish" name may be associated with my North-of-England or Scottish
ancestry.
Anyway, Princess Mary is a more than adequate Danish connection for we
people from Oz. :-)
Robert Thorsby
Without C we would only have Pasal, Basi, and obol.
be more productive if Debian and friends stopped using their
brain-dead hack of 1.18 and updated to the latest *universal* version
of groff.
Robert Thorsby
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying
ivatives for not updating the groff package I must say that I am
heartened to see this post.
Thank you for your efforts.
Robert Thorsby
You're worried criminals will continue to penetrate into cyberspace,
and I'm worried complexity, poor design and mismanagement will be there
to meet them. -- Marcus Ranum
bored.
Besides, macros is what groff is all about.
My $0.02.
May the Source be with you,
Robert Thorsby
A computing laddie from Dundee
Once wrote an application in p... .
But t'was faster in ed
And better in sed,
So he rewrote the damned thing in C.
On 29/12/09 12:35:37, Chuck Robey wrote:
> You ever see the Sam's book on Unix system
> typesetting? I think I saw a pdf of it on
> the web a year or two ago, (I have TWO
> printed copies of it!), and you ought to
> consider looking at it, it's easily the most
> readable things on all aspects of r
On 29/12/09 20:15:42, ted.hard...@manchester.ac.uk wrote:
> > A small caution: Everyone who wants to try Ted's
> > code should strip trailing whitespaces.
> Sorry for the trailing spaces! They were not in the
> original, and must have been introduced when I pasted
> from the source file into the em
ut live in fear that I have accidentally overridden
some tremendously important macro in a package that I am about to use.
Perhaps, texinfo might address this point? Or have I missed something?
Robert Thorsby
There is none so blind as they that won't see.
-- Jonathan Swift, "Polite Conversation"
On 04/02/10 20:16:48, Tadziu Hoffmann wrote:
> > [...] but live in fear that I have accidentally overridden
> > some tremendously important macro in a package that I am
> > about to use.
>
> You can guard yourself against accidentally overwriting
> existing macros by building a wrapper around "de"
; braces, it prevents the output of an additional
newline.
I would hazard the guess that redirection of STDERR from the command
line would obviate the need for redirecting .tm itself from within
groff. Is there *any* situation where a file created by .tm requests
would *not* require inspection and/or further manipulation by hand
before being included back into the book?
Robert Thorsby
computer technology and states that the
separation between the dots in an ellipsis shall be an en-quad -- and
woe betide any mere mortal civil servant who sent an MS to the Govt
Printer with an instruction to do otherwise.
Robert Thorsby
Don't give up. Moses was once a basket case. -- Anon
ng something here, but is there any reason why you
can't use the .mk request? I do it when overprinting photographs.
Robert Thorsby
hat would the team be open to
>accepting it?
While you are at it, would you please include "elif" in your patch. :-)
Robert Thorsby
eplacing
each tab with two spaces, the lines disappeared off to the right into
oblivion. What I would have given for a case statement. :-)
Fortunately, I use awk a bit so I am used to it -- kinda.
Robert Thorsby
Whatever women must do they must do twice
as well as men to be thought half as good.
Luckily, this is not difficult.
-- Charlotte Whitton
> outline of a solution:
Thanks Werner. I'll try it.
Robert Thorsby
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
nonce, I usually start
with 250u]
Also, this "Poor Man's Track-Kerning" is, of course, not strictly kosher
because it affects the inter-word spacing as much as the inter-character
spacing. What method do others use?
Robert Thorsby
To be or not to be. -- Shakespeare
To do is to be. -- Nietzsche
To be is to do. -- Sartre
Do be do be do. -- Sinatra
was your original suggestion
(some years ago) on this Forum that I was repeating! But, I like your
refinement -- apart from elegance, it reduces the risk of mistakes when
one is making piddling little adjustments to get that bloody word to
wrap. More than once I have adjusted the s value withou
On 16/10/12 06:56:03, trebol wrote:
> I would like to start a chapter without page number, simply starting
> the paragraph a few lines below normal, and then restore the page
> numbers.
>
> There is a simple way to disable and enable the page numbers, without
> touch the headers? I'm new in tro
On 18/10/12 04:11:35, trebol wrote:
> Thanks Robert, Tadziu. But these are header modifications.
> I'm asking for a request, or register to simply control page
> number printing in ms, but now I think there is not such
> thing. Anyway, thanks again.
Perhaps your are approaching the problem
On 11/12/12 11:11:21, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> I would think with a little work you could use ImageMagick to
extract
> the margin regions from each page, and check each one for the
presence
> of pixels.
One could over-print all the pages onto one page.
Is it possible that everyone is spendi
On 11/12/12 18:44:01, ted.hard...@wlandres.net wrote:
After all this discussion, it occurs to me that possibly Jérôme's
institution (a) want it in Word doc format; (b) when they get it in
that format can look into the document settings and verify that their
canonical template is present. Nev
On 10/11/13 09:53:23, Dave Kemper wrote:
This reminds me of another question I'd wanted to ask about groff's
italic-correction escapes.
Why are these escapes something that a user must insert manually,
rather than groff handling italic corrections automatically? It is
hard to imagine a ca
aginable was used.
It is obvious that the Manual was written for the Government Printing
Office staff and for those in government agencies who submitted
manuscripts for printing.
Robert Thorsby
On 04/03/14 12:55:48, Clarke Echols wrote:
I've been using groff to create a PostScript file, then I use the
Linux convert command:
convert file.ps file.pdf
and I've never had a problem with people reading it when I email it
to them, whether they're on mobile devices, PCs, or Macs.
D
On 06/03/14 10:30:48, Walter Alejandro Iglesias wrote:
Some months ago this list was quiet as usual. Suddenly Mr Eric
Raymond appeared kindly offering himself to migrate Groff to git. At
the same time two guys started to make strange proposals and Eric to
flatter one of them and calling hi
On 27/03/14 13:41:32, Doug McIlroy wrote:
Neither column of the side-by-side display looks very good to me. The
normal-spacing column is definitely thin. The reduced-spaceing column
is patchy--thick in places and thin (by comparison) in others. I
prefer unjustified text to either. Besides ha
not* done for
emphasis, it is done solely for visual effect (affect?).
I rest my case.
Robert Thorsby
Good morning List,
I need to set some text (eg., Lorem Ipsum) along the arc of a curve
(eg, a circle). The curve itself need not be visible.
Can anyone point me in the right direction? A mailing list thread?
Something in pic? Some postscript code?
TIA,
Robert Thorsby
On 16/01/15 19:56:33, Ted Harding wrote:
On 16-Jan-2015 01:48:52 Robert Thorsby wrote:
> I need to set some text (eg., Lorem Ipsum) along the arc of a curve
(eg, a circle). The curve itself need not be visible.
It can certainly be done, in various ways (including pic, and
PostScript tri
On 19/01/15 15:04:50, James K. Lowden wrote:
In musing about PostScript I came across "Mathematical Illustrations"
by Bill Casselman, http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/graphics/manual/ and
his example of text-on-a-path on page 3 of the preface,
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/graphics/manual/pdf/pre
I have started playing with mom and like her. Is there any way to use
mom with **both** headers and footers in the one document? If so, can
anyone point me in the right direction.
TIA,
Robert Thorsby
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http
On 2006.03.06 15:54 Peter Schaffter wrote:
On Mon, Mar 06, 2006, Robert Thorsby wrote:
> I have started playing with mom and like her. Is there any
> way to use mom with **both** headers and footers in the
> one document? If so, can anyone point me in the right
> direction.
By
ring you this way so that the mailing list archives will have
another solution to the perennial "How do I ... "
Feel free to mail me off-list if you get stuck.
HTH,
Robert Thorsby
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se the
new font in geqn.)
Try:
some text \f[MDUTBIMI]\[SymbolName]\fP some more text
Works for me.
Robert Thorsby
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lcome any overhaul of groff's
tables capabilities.
Robert Thorsby
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e where "last month" is six lines and
"next month" is seven lines, I cheat by throwing in an ".sp ...p" at
the beginning of the six-line mini-table.
HTH,
Robert Thorsby
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rows change dramatically. In the
first row the alignment is now with respect to the overall page (ie,
the table is ignored) but in the second row the alignment is with
respect to the unruled Main Table not the boxed inner table.
This is all a dis
ound this problem is
proving difficult and esthetically displeasing.
G'day Bill,
Is the ".nf" (no fill) primitive what you are looking for?
Robert Thorsby
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do lookups for addy validation? It would be easy
for those who post from a number of locations to subscribe from
multiple addresses -- or is mailman in need of further options?
Robert Thorsby
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be evaluated.
I think this could have been done easily with groff, by using negative
space to overlay images with text.
Robert Thorsby
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ver macro package inspires you, and set it so that there
is no header on the first page. Then use the "place picture then back
up" approach on the first page.
No doubt the gurus will give you the proper way to do it, but as a Q&D
s out an image gallery.
Please see the mailing list archives "PSPIC in Tables and Nested
Tables" in mid June 2006 for a problem I encountered when using PSPIC
in tables, and Werner's solution.
HTH,
Robert Thorsby
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