Tim,
> > A year or two ago, ISTR that *most* of the newbie-generated traffic in
> > the cafe was about atrocious performance of naive programs due to
> > strict/lazy concerns. I think it was scaring people away.
>
> I think it's debatable what the various causality relationships might be here
On 9/4/08, John Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm no master either, but I'd argue that if we promise new programmers
> that they don't need to care about strictness, we thereby ensure that
> default laziness is treacherous.
>
> A year or two ago, ISTR that *most* of the newbie-generated tr
On Sep 5, 2008, at 12:45 AM, Tim Chevalier wrote:
On 9/4/08, Jake Mcarthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Two lazy algorithms tend to compose well and result in a lazy
algorithm. A lazy algorithm can compose with a strict algorithm in
two
different ways. One way is for the lazy algorithm to cont
On 9/4/08, Jake Mcarthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Two lazy algorithms tend to compose well and result in a lazy
> algorithm. A lazy algorithm can compose with a strict algorithm in two
> different ways. One way is for the lazy algorithm to control the
> strict algorithm, in which case the
Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
Oh dear. To fix this, I suppose the RTS would have to be able to
keep track of all static initialisers. But it shouldn't otherwise
affect program optimisation.
What would the RTS actually do?
I don't know enough about the RTS to say. I imagine initialisers would
ha
Tim Chevalier wrote:
> I'm no master, but I've never encountered a situation where strictness
> annotations would be useful as documentation, nor can I imagine one.
> That's because optimization *is* the only reason why programmers
> should care about strictness information. IMO, arguing that
> pro
On Sep 4, 2008, at 11:40 PM, Tim Chevalier wrote:
But why not write your types like:
data Stream a = Cons a
data Vector3 a = Vector3 a a a
in a hypothetical call-by-value language where the <> annotation
denotes a lazily evaluated data structure? Does it matter? If it does,
th
minh thu wrote:
2008/9/4 Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I'd have thought you wanted "IORef (Maybe Thing)", which says that the
pointer always exists, but may not point to anything. On the other hand
"Maybe (IORef Thing)" says that the pointer may or may not exist.
Yes, someone else said it
On Sep 4, 2008, at 12:50 PM, minh thu wrote:
I'd have thought you wanted "IORef (Maybe Thing)", which says that
the
pointer always exists, but may not point to anything. On the other
hand
"Maybe (IORef Thing)" says that the pointer may or may not exist.
Yes, someone else said it too. But
On 9/4/08, Jake Mcarthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm no master either, but how about these simple examples?
>
> data Stream a = Cons !a (Stream a)
> data Vector3 a = Vector3 !a !a !a
>
> The compiler will certainly be able to infer the strictness itself in
> most uses, so ob
Adrian Hey wrote:
There's shed loads of information and semantic subtleties about pretty
much any operation you care to think of in the IO monad that isn't
communicated by it's type. All you know for sure is that it's weird,
because if it wasn't it wouldn't be in the IO monad.
So I think you're
On Sep 4, 2008, at 11:23 PM, Jake Mcarthur wrote:
To quote a blog article[1] I wrote in June,
And of course I would forget to link the article. My bad.
[1] http://geekrant.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/misconceptions/
- Jake McArthur
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On Sep 4, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Tim Chevalier wrote:
I'm no master, but I've never encountered a situation where strictness
annotations would be useful as documentation, nor can I imagine one.
I'm no master either, but how about these simple examples?
data Stream a = Cons !a (Stream a
On 9/4/08, Jake Mcarthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My guess would be that a master usually adds strictness annotations as
> documentation rather than as optimizations.
>
I'm no master, but I've never encountered a situation where strictness
annotations would be useful as documentation, nor can
Nice. I've written similar stuff a couple of times before, but the
formulation using Maybe and modify definitely solves some problems I
started to notice as I used it on bigger structures. However, it
might be better to separate a class of "never failing" references,
where the reader is guarantee
On 2008 Sep 4, at 20:08, David Menendez wrote:
What happens when you upgrade GHC? The problem MacPorts has is that
the libraries are still listed as installed, even though they are no
longer registered or useable.
MacPorts has the same problem with Perl (XS code is dependent on the
exact ver
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Pierre-Evariste Dagand
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> what could be a "categorical language"?
>
> Something we would call Charity, for example :-)
>
Also check out Tatsuya Hagino's PhD thesis, available here:
http://www.tom.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~hagino/index.html.en
It'
On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Tim Chevalier wrote:
The master programmer does not add strictness annotations, for she has
not yet run the profiler.
My guess would be that a master usually adds strictness annotations as
documentation rather than as optimizations.
- Jake McArthur
_
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I've downloaded the ghc-6.8.3-i386-unknown-linux.tar.bz2 tarball, which
>> I expected to work on my GNU/Linux box (1.2 GHz Athlon, Debian Sarge).
>
> Was there a problem installing GHC from the Debian package system with apt
Excerpts from Justin Bailey's message of Thu Sep 04 17:00:58 -0500 2008:
> Looking at the package, I think would be pretty painful though. It
> seems I'd have to build the AST by hand,
The AST Language.C defines for C is actually fairly regular once you
wrap your head around it - I got it to gene
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 20:08 -0400, David Menendez wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That's right, on Arch we just go for what people actually need, i.e.:
> >
> >1) 1 compiler, GHC
> >2) GHC comes with the core+extra set, so they're implicitl
dave:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That's right, on Arch we just go for what people actually need, i.e.:
> >
> >1) 1 compiler, GHC
> >2) GHC comes with the core+extra set, so they're implicitly available
> >3) all other libs are "haskell-(
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's right, on Arch we just go for what people actually need, i.e.:
>
>1) 1 compiler, GHC
>2) GHC comes with the core+extra set, so they're implicitly available
>3) all other libs are "haskell-(map toLower packag
I'm playing with functional references and looking for some feedback on a
small FRec library I put together:
http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/FRef.hs
Novel (I think) is that the library is applied to some data accesses that
are not normally covered by functional references -- ie. extracting
On 2008-09-04, Don Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The complication to support multiple implementations et al isn't done by
> any other language group (i.e. libs aren't bundled for multiple python
> impls, or different C compilers), so I don't see why we should waste
> time on that either. Pra
Hi, Don!
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 02:24:20PM -0700, Don Stewart wrote:
> acm:
> > Hi, Haskell!
> > I've downloaded the ghc-6.8.3-i386-unknown-linux.tar.bz2 tarball,
> > which I expected to work on my GNU/Linux box (1.2 GHz Athlon, Debian
> > Sarge).
> Was there a problem installing GHC from the D
On 2008 Sep 4, at 18:00, Justin Bailey wrote:
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Philippa Cowderoy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Would writing Haskell to generate the C via Language.C be an option?
Effectively you'd be using Haskell as a typeful macro system.
Interesting idea, and I've done similar
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Philippa Cowderoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would writing Haskell to generate the C via Language.C be an option?
> Effectively you'd be using Haskell as a typeful macro system.
Interesting idea, and I've done similar things with haskelldb
(generating SQL queries
HI THERE, JOHANNES, what a surprise, how are you doing?
Remember teaching me the 7-ring 1-count? Might've been at Erlangen,
possibly Augsburg, even Berlin, but it was quite a while ago. :-)
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 11:20:35PM +0200, Johannes Waldmann wrote:
> Hi, Alan -
> >./configure fails wit
jgbailey:
> I am thinking of writing a simple library in Haskell which would be
> useful in a number of different scenarios, and not always with
> programs written in Haskell. That makes me think the library should be
> C-compatible and able to link with C programs. Reading over chapter 9
> of the
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 20:38 +, Duncan Coutts wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 19:41 +0100, Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, John Van Enk wrote:
> >
> > > I'm looking for a document describing the differences between Parsec 3 and
> > > Parsec 2. My google-foo must be off because I
I am thinking of writing a simple library in Haskell which would be
useful in a number of different scenarios, and not always with
programs written in Haskell. That makes me think the library should be
C-compatible and able to link with C programs. Reading over chapter 9
of the GHC manual ("Foreign
Was there a problem installing GHC from the Debian package system with apt?
He said Sarge. I guess the current ghc packages are for Etch only? - J.W.
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On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 11:20:35PM +0200, Johannes Waldmann wrote:
>
> >./configure fails with "checking for path to top of build tree...
> >configure: error: cannot determine current directory".
>
> I guess the 6.8.3 binary does not work because it expects a newer
> version of libc or whatever.
acm:
> Hi, Haskell!
>
> I've downloaded the ghc-6.8.3-i386-unknown-linux.tar.bz2 tarball, which
> I expected to work on my GNU/Linux box (1.2 GHz Athlon, Debian Sarge).
Was there a problem installing GHC from the Debian package system with apt?
-- Don
Hi, Alan -
./configure fails with "checking for path to top of build tree...
configure: error: cannot determine current directory".
Yeah, I got the exact same error yesterday when trying to install
a ghc-6.8.3 binary dist on some older machine.
Well, since I had 6.8.2 working there, I just u
Hi, Haskell!
I've downloaded the ghc-6.8.3-i386-unknown-linux.tar.bz2 tarball, which
I expected to work on my GNU/Linux box (1.2 GHz Athlon, Debian Sarge).
I'm new at this game, though I'm thoroughly experienced with (and bear
deep battle scars from) GNU software in general.
./configure fails wi
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 19:41 +0100, Philippa Cowderoy wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, John Van Enk wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a document describing the differences between Parsec 3 and
> > Parsec 2. My google-foo must be off because I can't seem to find one. Does
> > any one know where to find that
duncan.coutts:
> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 12:09 -0400, David Menendez wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 5:19 AM, Duncan Coutts
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > That's exactly the same situation as with Gentoo. We provide a
> > > ghc-updater program that re-installs all the existing libs for the ne
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 12:09 -0400, David Menendez wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 5:19 AM, Duncan Coutts
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That's exactly the same situation as with Gentoo. We provide a
> > ghc-updater program that re-installs all the existing libs for the new
> > ghc. Gentoo also on
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Coppin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I love the way other people have wildly different ideas of "simple" than me.
> I'm staring at this and completely failing to comprehend it. (But then,
> anything with "co" in the name generally makes little sense to me...)
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 20:46 +0200, Pierre-Evariste Dagand wrote:
> > what could be a "categorical language"?
>
> Something we would call Charity, for example :-)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(programming_language)
> http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/home.html
>
> Also, there h
While an incompatibility list would be good, a descriptive change-log with
new feature examples would be nice.
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Philippa Cowderoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, John Van Enk wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a document describing the differences between
> what could be a "categorical language"?
Something we would call Charity, for example :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(programming_language)
http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/home.html
Also, there has been/is some work on Squiggol and the Algebra of
Programming that relies on ca
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, John Van Enk wrote:
> I'm looking for a document describing the differences between Parsec 3 and
> Parsec 2. My google-foo must be off because I can't seem to find one. Does
> any one know where to find that information?
>
Unfortunately there isn't currently a good one - in f
On Sep 4, 2008, at 13:41 , Andrew Coppin wrote:
Ryan Ingram wrote:
It's pretty simple, I think.
type ExpGen = ReaderT [String] Gen
arbExp :: ExpGen Expression
-- exercise for the reader
instance Arbitrary Expression where
arbitrary = runReaderT arbExp []
coarbitrary = coarbExp
coarbExp
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 18:41 +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Ryan Ingram wrote:
> > It's pretty simple, I think.
> >
> > type ExpGen = ReaderT [String] Gen
> >
> > arbExp :: ExpGen Expression
> > -- exercise for the reader
> >
> > instance Arbitrary Expression where
> > arbitrary = runReaderT arbE
2008/9/4 Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> minh thu wrote:
>>
>> Do you suggest I use
>>
>> data Thing = Thing | None
>>
>> and IORef Thing instead of
>>
>> data Thing = Thing
>>
>> and Maybe (IORef Thing) ?
>>
>> I'm writing a data structure that can hold Things (and that can be
>> mutated) or
I'm looking for a document describing the differences between Parsec 3 and
Parsec 2. My google-foo must be off because I can't seem to find one. Does
any one know where to find that information?
--
/jve
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Ryan Ingram wrote:
It's pretty simple, I think.
type ExpGen = ReaderT [String] Gen
arbExp :: ExpGen Expression
-- exercise for the reader
instance Arbitrary Expression where
arbitrary = runReaderT arbExp []
coarbitrary = coarbExp
coarbExp (Var s) = variant 0 . coarbitrary s
coarb
minh thu wrote:
Do you suggest I use
data Thing = Thing | None
and IORef Thing instead of
data Thing = Thing
and Maybe (IORef Thing) ?
I'm writing a data structure that can hold Things (and that can be mutated) or
nothing (there is a hole in the wrapping data).
I'd have thought you wan
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:
On 2008 Sep 3, at 14:34, Andrew Coppin wrote:
The amusing (?) part is that the interpretter itself is essentially
quite simple. I've implemented it several times before now. But what
I'm trying to do it make it print out elaborately formatted execution
traces so
This sounds relevant to our interests...
- Forwarded message from Swarat Chaudhuri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:13:55 -0400
From: Swarat Chaudhuri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [TYPES] POPL logo design contest
[ The Types Forum, http://lists.seas.u
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 12:09:33PM -0400, David Menendez wrote:
>
> Does anyone know whether arch linux and debian can handle multiple
> Haskell environments?
Debian currently only handles one version of GHC (but package
dependencies mean that you can't end up with libraries compiled for the
wron
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 5:19 AM, Duncan Coutts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 17:54 -0400, David Menendez wrote:
>> In my experience thus far, MacPorts feels like a poor match for Cabal.
>> As far as I can tell, you get at most one active installation of a
>> given port, which me
Hi,
I’ve been thinking about this and would like your
opinion: what could be a “categorical language”?
Something like a language where categories and
functors are first class; does that makes sense at
all? (Sorry if this is insane, I'm a begginer in
categories, I've read just the first chapter of
On 9/3/08, wren ng thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you want the datatype to be strict in state and rec, then you should add
> strictness annotations to those fields directly:
>
> data Query state rec = Query !state !rec
The novice programmer scatters strictness annotations to and fro
Ashley Yakeley wrote:
> Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
> > I talked to Don about this and you're right, that doesn't happen.
> > However
> > he also confirmed that it does load modules a second time if they
are
> > in the main program as well as the plugin, and it would be difficult
> > to merge the
Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
I talked to Don about this and you're right, that doesn't happen.
However
he also confirmed that it does load modules a second time if they are
in the main program as well as the plugin, and it would be difficult to
merge the static and dynamic versions of the module.
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 06:53 +0200, Gour wrote:
> As potential 'solution the 'i18n' package was mentioned
> (http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/i18n) with
> the remark that its API is not the most beautiful.
Seems to me that this is a good use case for implicit parameters,
On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 17:54 -0400, David Menendez wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 4:14 PM, John MacFarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It would be great if there were an automated or semi-automated way
> > of generating a MacPorts Portfile from a HackageDB package, along
> > the lines of dons' c
2008/9/4 Lennart Augustsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I would represent the data structure in a pure way, and restrict the
> IO monad to the operations that actually do IO.
> If you need some kind of mutable graph, I suggest representing that
> graph as a map (Data.Map) from node names to neighbors.
>
I would represent the data structure in a pure way, and restrict the
IO monad to the operations that actually do IO.
If you need some kind of mutable graph, I suggest representing that
graph as a map (Data.Map) from node names to neighbors.
The "mutation" is then just updating the map. An extra be
Ashley Yakeley wrote:
> Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
> > In compiled code module boundaries don't necessarily exist. So how
do
> > you relink the loaded code so that it points to the unique copy of
the
> > module?
> hs-plugins loads modules as single .o files, I believe.
Yes, but (a) the loadin
2008/9/4 Timothy Goddard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> It looks like this code isn't really in fitting with normal Haskell idioms.
I guess you mean by Haskell idiom : "pure". But Haskell allows you to
do IO, etc.
> Emulating C in Haskell will only give you a harder way of writing C. Don't
> think about
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