Re: z/OS DFS SMB Performance

2006-03-31 Thread R.S.
Smith, Sean M wrote: Yes I believe that is the case. We are not using z/OS for the VPN service. In that case you should notice similar speeds on same speed link, with or without VPN. I know your non-VPN connection is LAN connection, probably much faster than VPN connection. If possible try

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread Shane
On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 09:53 +0200, R.S. wrote: > Ted MacNEIL wrote: > >>True, but not all VTOCs have INDEXes > > > > Why not in this day and age? > > Even my non-SMS volumes, few that they may be, have an index. > > > > They were out long before SMS was. > > My SPOOL volumes (or rather JES2 SPOO

Re: S0F4 Abend - Thanks

2006-03-31 Thread Terry Sambrooks
Hi Bob, Thanks for the response to my S0F4 question. It just unnerved me and I was looking for some re-assurance that I or my users had not done anything silly. Thanks again - Terry Terry Sambrooks Director KMS-IT Limited 228 Abbeydale Road South Dore Sheffield S17 3LA UK Tel: +44 (0)114 262

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM
"Shane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 09:53 +0200, R.S. wrote: > > Ted MacNEIL wrote: > > >>True, but not all VTOCs have INDEXes > > > > > > Why not in this day and age? > > > Even my non-SMS volumes, few that they may be, have an index. >

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread R.S.
Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM wrote: "Shane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 09:53 +0200, R.S. wrote: Ted MacNEIL wrote: True, but not all VTOCs have INDEXes Why not in this day and age? Even my non-SMS volumes, few that they may be, have an

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread (IBM Mainframe Discussion List)
In a message dated 3/30/2006 6:54:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >True, but not all VTOCs have INDEXes Why not in this day and age? Even my non-SMS volumes, few that they may be, have an index. I didn't mean to imply that I advocated not having a VTOC index.

Writable Static Areas (was Re: DS, DC or EQU for labels)

2006-03-31 Thread John R. Grout
"P. Raulerson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Note that if you segregate all changeable data, putting it > into its own area, the OS is usually smart enough to load > one copy of the code/text section, and then multiple copies > of the data section. Basically, re-entrant code. In z/OS, these data s

Re: Systems Programmer Levels Justification

2006-03-31 Thread R.S.
Joel C. Ewing wrote: [...] A number of reasons for the SysProg salary differential: (1)a SysProg needs a large amount of specialized training to handle issues on hardware and operating system configuration which application programmers never have to consider; (2)a SysProg needs the abilit

Re: IBM Enterprise COBOL - compiler options that impact "behavior"

2006-03-31 Thread Steve Comstock
Bill Klein wrote: See comments below for some of my "responses". I thought I was clear that I was NOT talking about "performance" or "storage" impacts. I think most of those types of "impacts" are cases where you and I disagree. Well, I was mostly thinking about performance, so I missed your

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread McKown, John
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:00 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering > > > >True, but not all VTOCs have INDEXes

R: Did you know RRS had ISPF panels?

2006-03-31 Thread MASSIMO BIANCUCCI
If anybody is interested in "inquiring" RRS log streams in batch mode, IBM Labs developed a batch interface to do this too. They built this tool to address some requirements from users using APPC protected conversation. Best regards. -Messaggio originale- Da: IBM Mainframe Discussion L

Re: DB2 Question

2006-03-31 Thread Avram Friedman
DBRM's are temporary, once the plan / package is bound there is no need to recover them ... DB2 does not use them after after bind. Re-compile will not recover the DBRM as you suggested. Both DB2 static statements and DB2 executables are time stamped by actions in the precompile process and at r

Re: Space limit for SMF datasets?

2006-03-31 Thread Lance Kopplin
Size isn't the issue, it's being able to dump them quicker than they fill up. Indeed. Doesn't SMF support use of the logger? Does anyone have experience using the logger for SMF? SMF doesn't write to logger (out of the box). We do write SMF to logger, but I wrote the code to do it. Pretty

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
>Absolutely no need for a VTOCIX. The same would be true of any non-SMS volume which is designed to have a minimal number of permenantly allocated datasets. I came from a shop that was very retentive on DASD. There would be volumes added and removed from various storage groups on a regular basis.

WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Larry Kraus
Can someone explain how WLM works if someone submits a job using a WLM jobclass, but they don't specify a scheduling environment? Is there a default scheduling environment? The job does run. Disclaimer: This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above.

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Staller, Allan
The short answer is they are not related. There is no "default" scheduling environment. WLM inits decide WHEN an job will run, Schedling Environments decide WHERE it may run. Of course, if a Scheduling Environment IS requested, if it is not available, the job will not run. If a Scheduling Environ

Heads-up: Automatic Daylight Savings Time Change via Sysplex Timer May Not Work

2006-03-31 Thread Brian Peterson
There is apparently a problem with the automatic daylight savings time change where some LPARs on a machine might not apply the time change at the scheduled time. You are not exposed to the problem if you do not attempt to automatically implement time change via the 9037 sysplex timer. There is a

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Ayon, John
It will run on any system that has a WLM initiator. It completely ignores the WLM scheduling environment resources, but I think it still uses WLM to pick the system that will give it the best performance. John Ayon z/OS Server Technology -

Re: Heads-up: Automatic Daylight Savings Time Change via Sysplex Timer May Not Work

2006-03-31 Thread Brian Peterson
The Red Alert is now available: http://techsupport.services.ibm.com/server/redAlerts/20060331.html According to the Red Alert, the problem is in z990 and z890 machines at Driver 55. Brian On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:22:50 -0600, Brian Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >There is app

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Skip Robinson
One point of clarification: while Scheduling Environments primarily determine where a job will run, they can also determine by extension *whether* a job will run. That is, one use of SE is to hold up jobs that need some resource that is (presumably) temporarily unavailable. In our shop, we use

Re: Heads-up: Automatic Daylight Savings Time Change via Sysplex Timer May Not Work

2006-03-31 Thread Jerry Whitteridge
I recieved the following this morning: <= ITS Global Alert => INTEGRATED TECHNOLOGY SERVICES ALERT Document Number: 033006B Machine Type: 2084, 2086 Models Affected: All

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Edward E. Jaffe
Ayon, John wrote: It will run on any system that has a WLM initiator. It completely ignores the WLM scheduling environment resources, but I think it still uses WLM to pick the system that will give it the best performance. No. JES schedules work into any available WLM initiator that is cur

Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Rugen, Len
I've rolled the JES exits from release to release in the past but never got into any depth. The people that developed them here are long gone. I'm moving from z/OS 1.4 to 1.7 and the code for EXIT3 won't assemble. It looks like a lot of things were removed from $RDRWORK, this exit refers to R

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Imbriale, Donald (Exchange)
This may help. http://www-03.ibm.com/support/techdocs/atsmastr.nsf/WebIndex/FLASH10418 Don Imbriale >-Original Message- >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >Of Rugen, Len >Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:10 PM >To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU >Subject: Over

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Norman Hollander
In particular, a Scheduling Environment may be tied to your Automation Solution that will set the Scheduling Resource for a particular DB2 subsystem when the DB2 is actually ready to do work. Just because a DB2 subsystem is up, does not mean it isn't doing some other work and is not ready for prim

Re: Reading a Load Module

2006-03-31 Thread
Take a look at the Oct 1999 and Jan 2000 TSO/ISPF PDFs on XEPHON. Article names are Directory Entry Services and Binder API. It states that macro DESERV is the functional replacement for BLDL and STOW. Code is Rexx, ASM, ISPF panels and msgs. Not exactly what you asked for but worth a look. Ed

HSM Query Question

2006-03-31 Thread Howard Rifkind
I'm looking for the proper syntax to key in at the MVS console to query HSM. Can anyone on the list help. Thanks. - How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. ---

Re: HSM Query Question

2006-03-31 Thread Patrick Lyon
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:42:42 -0800, Howard Rifkind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I'm looking for the proper syntax to key in at the MVS console to query HSM. > > Can anyone on the list help. Thanks. > F DFHSM,QUERY ACTIVE assuming DFHSM is your started task name. --

Re: z/OS 1.7 and "Large Sequential Data Set" Offering

2006-03-31 Thread Arthur T.
In regards to JES2 SPOOL volumes without VTOC index: On 31 Mar 2006 02:22:05 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.) wrote: Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM wrote: Valid reasons, however our spool and page pack do have indexes, just because of the rule

TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Scott Harder
Hello List, I am hoping someone here can help me, although I realize that I should probably post this on the TCPIP list, of which I am not subscribed to a the moment. I am upgrading a release of z/OS ADCD (1.5 to 1.6) and I am customizing the TCPIP profile for v1.6. The v1.5 TCPIP profile used B

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Desi de la Garza
We have no subnet value coded ; Network First Hop Link Name Packet Size Subnet Mask Subnet Value ; 206.254.132 = OSAGBELINK1500 0 Thanks, Desi -Original

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread McKown, John
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Harder > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:42 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES) > > > Hello List, > > I am hoping someone here can he

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Harry Riedel
Scott, My understatnding is you want to continue to use the BEGINROUTES/ENDROUTES statements. You will need to use them if you go to IP V6. See page 107 of the 1.7 IP configuration reference guide. Harry Sc

Re: HSM Query Question

2006-03-31 Thread Chris Sultis
HESND QUERY ACTIVE Thanks, Chris M. Sultis Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama Sr. Systems Programer (205) 220-3863 >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/31/2006 11:57:28 AM >>> On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:42:42 -0800, Howard Rifkind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I'm looking for the proper syntax to key in at the

CA-OPS/MVS

2006-03-31 Thread Mark Steely
Is there a way to put a delay in between an action an a alert rule? Thank You -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the arch

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Chris Mason
Scott, I'm not at all sure I understand the rationale for your request. GATEWAY is the old, old way of doing it, the understanding of which was some sort of rite of passage for the acolytes of TCP/IP for MVS. One well-known regular contributor to this group/list - in another forum many years ago

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Chris Mason
Desi, Do you know why you have no Subnet Value coded - and why your Subnet Mask is 0 - and why the IP address under "Network" shows only 3 bytes of digits - or shows as many as 3 bytes of digits? I'm asking not because I don't know but it might be important one day, maybe soon, that you know beca

Re: HSM Query Question

2006-03-31 Thread Greg Shirey
HSEND is an alias for HSENDCMD and is not intended for the MVS console. At least according to the HELP text: Function - The HSENDCMD command is used to issue DFSMShsm system programmer, operator, and storage administrator commands from a TSO terminal, rather than from the

Re: TCPIP Profile (GATEWAY vs BEGIN/ENDROUTES)

2006-03-31 Thread Scott Harder
Wow! Thanks, Chris, and everyone else that responded. I'll stick with the BEGIN/ENDROUTES. I'm wondering, though, if this is the more modern way, why would IBM ship v1.5 with it and v1.6 without. I may be wrong about that, however my tServer vendor may have put them in there. Thanks again

Re: CA-OPS/MVS

2006-03-31 Thread Knutson, Sam
Yes. If you provide a real life example of what you are trying to do you may get a better specific answer. You can run a REXX program that will go into an OSF server and OPSWAIT. You could create a dynamic TOD rule to run a program at some time in the future. OPSMVS is a wonderful tool kit! When

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Dave Danner
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:10:23 -0600, Rugen, Len <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I'm moving from z/OS 1.4 to 1.7 and the code for EXIT3 won't assemble. >It looks like a lot of things were removed from $RDRWORK, this exit >refers to RDWSAVE1 which appears to be one of the things removed. > >Before I dig

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Rugen, Len
I wasn't aware that there was "exit migration" needed until someone else replied. At first look, I think we can do it, but our accounting codes have acceptable formats going back 20-25 years, all changes were "upward compatible", so the old JCL still works. The exit goes down one format, gives up,

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Brian Peterson
IBM is also offering "services" to help out customers in similar situations. http://www- 03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/support/jes2_exits_offering.html Brian On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:24:33 -0600, Rugen, Len <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I wasn't aware that there was "exit migration" needed

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
>Can someone explain how WLM works if someone submits a job using a WLM jobclass, but they don't specify a scheduling environment? Is there a default scheduling environment? The job does run. A scheduling environment is NOT required. - -teD I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal pan

Re: WLM init without scheduling environment

2006-03-31 Thread Norman Hollander
There is no default Scheduling Environment. You can assign a SE to a particular Jobclass (WLM or JES) in the JESPARMs. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 SYSN 4:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Steve Comstock
Brian Peterson wrote: IBM is also offering "services" to help out customers in similar situations. http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/support/jes2_exits_offering.html Brian Gee, you don't think that ... ? Nah! -Steve Comstock --

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Lizette Koehler
Steve, you do not think that IBM would create a situation where they could charge money to fix it? I thought not. Lizette -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Chase, John
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Comstock > > Brian Peterson wrote: > > IBM is also offering "services" to help out customers in similar situations. > > > > > http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/support/jes2_exits_off ering.html

Questions on DFHSM processing

2006-03-31 Thread Pommier, Rex R.
Hi, and sorry in advance if these are simple questions. I'm not a storage administrator, but am trying to figure out some things about how our system operates. Our environment is z.OS 1.4, running DFSMS/hsm as well as DFHSMdss and DFSMSrmm. We use both automatic backups of changed datasets an

Re: Heads-up: Automatic Daylight Savings Time Change via Sysplex Timer May Not Work

2006-03-31 Thread Shane
On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 10:27 -0600, Brian Peterson wrote: > According to the Red Alert, the problem is in z990 and z890 machines at > Driver 55. And for those machines Driver 55 seems to have caused more problems than it's worth. Especially small (say single CEC) shops. Shane ... ---

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Brian Peterson
In my opinion, Steve Comstock is out of line here. In JES2 for z/OS 1.7, IBM has implemented perhaps the most significant enhancements to JES2 in literally years. - NJE over TCP/IP - Large Spool data sets (> 64K tracks) - Long SYSIN support (32K Lrecl) - Table Pair enhancements - SSI for JES2 mon

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
>In an attempt to help customers where the original JES2 sysprog has moved on to bigger and better things, IBM has decided to provide a service to help customers evaluate their JES2 exits, and determine if the scope of their particular project is small/medium/large/xlarge. >WHY IS THIS A BAD THING

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Steve Comstock
Brian Peterson wrote: In my opinion, Steve Comstock is out of line here. It was a joke, man! In JES2 for z/OS 1.7, IBM has implemented perhaps the most significant enhancements to JES2 in literally years. - NJE over TCP/IP - Large Spool data sets (> 64K tracks) - Long SYSIN support (32K Lr

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
Maybe I over-reacted, too. I jumped to the conclusion that IBM was charging for this service. If they're not, I appologise. If they are, my comments still stand. BTW, my comments about MicroSoft still stand. - -teD I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in! -Ori

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Skip Robinson
Now that we've had our Friday afternoon chill out--easy to do in LA where it's cool and drizzly--I want to affirm Brian's observation: we're given a truckload of new function for our trouble. Which is not even much trouble if 1. you have none of the affected exits in use, or 2. you have or can

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
>As far as the low blow of comparing IBM with Microsoft, I'm sure Bill Gates is turning over in his lavish mansion. ;-) I could show you scars from both vendors! I also know things that I cannot reveal as a former (short-time) IBMer. But, suffice it to say, nobody wants to do any more than they

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Bob Shannon
>>In an attempt to help customers where the original JES2 sysprog has >>moved on to bigger and better things, IBM has decided to provide a service >>to help customers evaluate their JES2 exits, and determine if the scope of >>their particular project is small/medium/large/xlarge. >>WHY IS THIS A

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Ted MacNEIL
>but do you really expect them to work for free? I don't. Hello? They are changing the way things are done. Then charging you to 'fix' it? I still think that's wrong. - -teD I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in!

The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread Kannard, Stephen
Hi, We're trying to squeeze more performance from the amazing shrinking batch processing window, we would like to use Hiperspace, the file is not vsam , but perhaps there is a 3rd pty product that could help. Thank You. -- For IB

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Bob Rutledge
I saw that guide on the short-lived newhasp.com a bit before I saw it on the IBM migration pages, and I was paying attention at the time as I was getting ready to convert my own exits. There's gotta be a story in there somewhere... Bob Shannon wrote: ... As Dave Danner mentioned, they publi

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Arthur T.
On 31 Mar 2006 13:29:47 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Comstock) wrote: IBM is also offering "services" to help out customers in similar situations. http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/support/jes2_exits_offering.html Br

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Bob Rutledge
Ted MacNEIL wrote: Hello? They are changing the way things are done. Hello? I rather expect things to change given the business we're in. I prefer it to boredom. Then charging you to 'fix' it? IBM isn't charging anyone to 'fix' anything. Any customer implementing exit code in any com

Re: The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread john gilmore
Tell us more about your problem and the programming language in which you are dealing with it. Is there really only one file involved? Or are there three, as in a classical MFU? John Gilmore Ashland, MA 01721-1817 USA From: "Kannard, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Dis

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Rugen, Len
I went to the Anaheim share, but since we are SO short handed, I went to the IMS sessions instead of the JES session. I can't be in two places. I don't know where anyone would pick up the depth of knowledge in JES as the people that developed these exits had. I may well take this "opprot

FW: The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread Kannard, Stephen
Language is cobol. The latest analysis shows dasd excps of 9,494,372 for one seq dd, we felt that if we could get better buffering run time would improve. Stevek. -Original Message- From: john gilmore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 6:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.ED

Re: FW: The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread John S. Giltner, Jr.
What is the LRECL, Block size, and how many record? Have you tried using BUFNO? Kannard, Stephen wrote: Language is cobol. The latest analysis shows dasd excps of 9,494,372 for one seq dd, we felt that if we could get better buffering run time would improve. Stevek. -Original Message-

The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread Bill Klein
Just a couple of "COBOL sequential file" issues that MIGHT impact this. 1) If the file is a "variable length" file, then make certain that you have the AWO compiler options specified. 2) If you have any internal SORT statments, make certain that you have specified FASTSRT compiler option. ***

Re: The amazing shrinking batch window.

2006-03-31 Thread Ed Gould
On Mar 31, 2006, at 9:12 PM, Kannard, Stephen wrote: Language is cobol. The latest analysis shows dasd excps of 9,494,372 for one seq dd, we felt that if we could get better buffering run time would improve. Stevek. Steve, What type of file is it? Is it unblocked (ie 80-80 or something cl

Re: Over my head in a JES exit

2006-03-31 Thread Ed Gould
On Mar 31, 2006, at 8:39 PM, Rugen, Len wrote: I went to the Anaheim share, but since we are SO short handed, I went to the IMS sessions instead of the JES session. I can't be in two places. I don't know where anyone would pick up the depth of knowledge in JES as the people that develope