: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository?Why or why not
[ On Sunday, March 10, 2002 at 09:59:01 (-0500), David Clunie wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files
Oh, no, please don't get him started!
-Original Message-
From: Stuart Donaldson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:18 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository? Why or why not
Greg,
What would you
[ On Tuesday, March 12, 2002 at 06:17:39 (-0800), Stuart Donaldson wrote: ]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository?Why or
why not
What would you recommend as the right tool for the job?
I cannot tell you because I don't know your requirements
--- Matthew Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The basic measure of whether you should import
binary files into a
repository is whether or not you find it annoying.
Text files are transfered
very quickly over remote connections, and binary
files can take a long
time -- just to confirm that
Noel Yap writes:
I think there's been some talk, but only talk, of
having CVS use, when possible, the rsync algorithm to
transfer files.
As far as I know, that's correct. It's an interesting idea, but it
doesn't fit very well with the design of the CVS client/server protocol,
so it would
[ On Sunday, March 10, 2002 at 09:59:01 (-0500), David Clunie wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository?Why or
why not
So for everyone who says we shouldn't be doing this because it wasn't
designed for it, I say point us to a better tool
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So you're successfully using the wrong tool for the
job. It doesn't
make it any more correct. It's still the wrong tool
for the job.
Subtle changes to your process could prove
disasterous, just as using a
knife as a screw driver could cause far
Hi
We currently have about 350GB of 1MB binary image files stored in a CVS
repository in order to keep track of who created them and when, and in
rare circumstances when they are modified or replaced, who did that and
when. The application has no need for concurrent merges, since the files
are
Hi All,
I think in this discussion it comes down to useability. The key idea is that
CVS is a solution for versioning binary files, but not a _scalable_ solution
for versioning binary files. It can handle them in bits and pieces. All this
means is that if you are a purist, then you will reject
Noel == Noel Yap [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Noel --- Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Noel wrote:
My credit card is also designed to server a very very specific
purpose. But when I can't a ruler nearby and I need one, why
not use that plastic object from purse as a ruler?
Christian == Christian Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christian Hmm diff/merge, one short question, as you might have
Christian understood Linux/unix and it's tools are not my main
Christian expertise .-)
Christian Does not linux come with a diff-tool?
diff has been a
Greg == Greg A Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Not necessarily. I don't know your background, but the Unix
mentality is to have a bunch of tools that do one thing
extremely well and are easily integrated into one another.
Greg Another way of saying this is that M$-Windows
--- Christian Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(we have started to intruduce our own version
functionallity in the code so
that we can ask what version of the class we are
running, and thisin all the
classes we create ourselves, if we are extending a
class, we first make our
own abstract
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It also depends a _GREAT_ deal on what the file
contains. Jar files do
not contain easily diff-able and patch-able text and
therefore are not
appropriate for storage in CVS.
Is this really true? Has anyone tried javap'ing the
contents of a jar
--- Richard Caley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Unless you can come up with a bigger problem with
using CVS, you are
not going to convince anyone.
I beg to differ. I think acadamecians would easily
give in to these arguments :-)
Noel
__
Do You
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Versioning _is_ diffs! There's no point to keeping
every revision of
every file unless you can calculate a _meaningful_
delta between them!
Not even if your storage scheme is to keep each
revision of the whole
file as a unique object.
Versioning
--- Richard Caley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
There is a bigger issue for non-sane formats.
Notably Word documents
which can't be diffed but logically should be. The
solution here is to
shoot anyone who brings one near your project:-).
Technically, they can be diff'ed, but you'd probably
have
--- Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Christian Well since I come from a windows
enviroment, cvs is
Christian mainly used as a version control
system, diff/merge is
Christian not used that much by us (yet) and we
use cvs because
Christian was the most cost-effective we
Noel == Noel Yap [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Windows/DOS gives you a very very very confined view of the
giant world.
Noel That's why I use Cygwin when on Windoze.
Yeah! That provides refuge! But it's never the real things. It's
just a pretty giftwrap around a rotten egg:
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It matters not what the Paul
Sander's of the world
might claim is possible -- I speak of what _is_,
right now, today.
What _is_ right now, today, is that many developers
use CVS to manage non-diff3-able files. The proof is
in the pudding -- CVS is
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sure, it's possible, but it does not work well and
it does not give any
meaning to the results that cannot better be
obtained in any number of
other possible ways.
But it works well enough. If it didn't, those using
it would find a better
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
C code isn't in a typically linear text format
either, but the way most
people lay it out in a typical linear text file
lends itself very well
to manipulation with diff/diff3/patch -- so well
that research and tons
of practical experience has
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 3:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository? Why or why not
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 14:21:56 (-0600
--- Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Noel I'm assuming you mean a straight-edge, not
a ruler?
Isn't a ruler for drawing rules, i.e. straing lines?
Funny, the dictionary definition for ruler agrees
with you (although it did add the measuring part as
well), but the thesaurus entry for
Christian == Christian Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christian (urgh) and dll files this is not so, if you try to
Christian access a dcom component in that system there is only
Christian one version of that component,you cannot (afaik) have 2
Christian versions of the same
There is a bigger issue for non-sane formats. Notably Word documents
which can't be diffed but logically should be. The solution here is to
shoot anyone who brings one near your project:-).
Just a quick side note: MSWord includes a diff tool. And IIRC, ClearCase
even uses it if you compare
Just a quick side note: MSWord includes a diff tool. And IIRC, ClearCase
even uses it if you compare two versions of the same word file...
Where do I find it?
Dave
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yuval.
-Original Message-
From: Daniels, David [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 3:14 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository? Why or why not
Just a quick side note: MSWord
- Original Message -
From: Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Christian (we have started to intruduce our own version
Christian functionallity in the code so that we can ask what
Christian version of the class we are running, and thisin all the
Christian classes we create
--- Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since Jar files are products they really should be
installed as
appropriate onto the development and test machines,
just as I would
install compiled C libraries (and their associated
header files) on my
development machines (or the compiled shared
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 21:52:00 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
I know it (even processsed them a couple of times), but it's
irrelevent. Storing as diffs is just an optimisation, not a
necessary
--- Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
My credit card is also designed to server a
very very specific
purpose. But when I can't a ruler nearby and I
need one, why not use
that plastic object from purse as a ruler?
I'm assuming you mean a straight-edge, not a ruler?
Actually,
We do quite lot of Java developpement with CVS and we handle jars like this :
1) Jars that _we generate_ are not stored in CVS, only the sources are.
2) 3rd party Jars that we use are stored on an internal web server (one
directory per jar with a sub directory per version)
3) We use an ANT
--- Forwarded mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CVS is meant to be a concurrent versioning system, but
the design prevents it from achieving this goal when
it comes to non-diff3-able files. I see no reason why
this design cannot be changed in order to achieve its
intended purpose.
The *design* does
--- Forwarded mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
We do quite lot of Java developpement with CVS and we handle jars like this :
1) Jars that _we generate_ are not stored in CVS, only the sources are.
2) 3rd party Jars that we use are stored on an internal web server (one
directory per jar with a sub
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 09:59:38 (-0600), Thornley, David wrote: ]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why
or why not
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
It might not be a necessary feature, but it's the way RCS files
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 16:52:25 (+0100), Christian Andersson wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
From: Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Christian Well since I come from a windows enviroment, cvs is
Christian
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 08:35:25 (-0800), Noel Yap wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
Not necessarily. I don't know your background, but
the Unix mentality is to have a bunch of tools that do
one thing extremely well
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 1:58 PM
To: Thornley, David
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository? Why or why not
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 18:42:33 (+0100), Martin Fuzzey wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
We do quite lot of Java developpement with CVS and we handle jars like this :
1) Jars that _we generate_ are not stored
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 08:57:13 (-0800), Noel Yap wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
If you can't 'diff' and 'merge', why are
you using CVS?
I think the typical answer is, To have one version
control interface
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 23:22:10 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
No, versioning is the ability to go back. Diffing the ability to
compare. One can use diffing to optimise versioning, but either can
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 16:12:24 (-0800), Paul Sander wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
RCS stores binary files just fine, though perhaps not as efficiently as
most ASCII files. All that is needed is that they come out
The same factors which makes (sane) files formats undiffable make them
the data stored in them unlikely to be edited in parallel.
Of all the incorrect things you've said, that's the most incorrect.
Seems to make sense to my. What's incorrect about it?
[ On Wednesday, March 6, 2002 at 14:21:56 (-0600), Thornley, David wrote: ]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why
or why not
I still fail to understand the problem.
What's to UNDERSTAND? CVS manages source files which are diffable and
patchable
--- Forwarded mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 16:12:24 (-0800), Paul Sander wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
RCS stores binary files just fine, though perhaps not as efficiently as
most ASCII files
With RCS, and thus with CVS, versioning and diffing (and patching) are one.
You confuse implementation with use. The fact that RCS happens to use
diffing to reduce disk useage does not mean the two are logically the
same.
The same factors which makes (sane) files formats undiffable make
If only Sun's Java team understood the importance of
version tracking in JAR files and in RMI definitions.
Sun has a version standard that defines at the package
level the format of an interface specification version
(major.minor.edit), the format of an implementation version
(a string,
Please read this one through before answering :-) (i'm happy this kind of
discussion happens, since it allows me to learn)
So what you are saying is that if we are several developers spread
across
several places (perheps even different countries) and in our project we
use
3:rd party
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Larry Jones (lj) writes:
lj No. JAR files are generated -- you should only import source code.
Source code is generated. You should only import brains:-)
Whether somethign is best thougt of as original or derrived depends on
context. Others have mentioned 3rd
Christian == Christian Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christian Since cvs is a Version System, (sometimes only a single
Christian program, and sometime it is set up as a client server
Christian system) it keeps track of different version of files,
Christian and what do I
Daniels, == Daniels, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Daniels, You can, but I don't think it's necessary. Assuming the
Daniels, jar contains the class files created from .java files in
Daniels, the same repository,
...
Wrong assumption. I think he's talking about *3rd party* .JAR
- Original Message -
From: Lee Sau Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Christian Since cvs is a Version System, (sometimes only a single
Christian program, and sometime it is set up as a client server
Christian system) it keeps track of different version of files,
Christian and
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 09:32:01 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
Whether somethign is best thougt of as original or derrived depends on
context.
It also depends a _GREAT_ deal on what the file
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 11:46:53 (+0100), Christian Andersson wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
Why would you try to use one tool which has a _very_ specific
capability to do something that it is explicitly
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
gaw With CVS and non-diff-able, non-patch-able files we're talking about
gaw using a tool that's not even remotely suitable for the job at
gaw hand.
Lets be concrete.
Say I have a software project consisteing of some number of
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
gaw It also depends a _GREAT_ deal on what the file contains. Jar files do
gaw not contain easily diff-able and patch-able text and therefore are not
gaw appropriate for storage in CVS.
Bollocks. The core task of CVS is version control.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:02 PM
To: Christian Andersson
Cc: CVS-II Discussion Mailing List
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the
Repository? Why or why not
Good one, I use
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 20:22:01 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
Bollocks. The core task of CVS is version control.
You're so wrong I don't even know where to start.
The abiliy
to get a diff
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 14:54:13 (-0600), Thornley, David wrote: ]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why
or why not
CVS doesn't handle non-mergeable files well, but it doesn't really do
much worse than systems purposely designed for them
With CVS and non-diff-able, non-patch-able files we're talking about
using a tool that's not even remotely suitable for the job at hand.
We're not talking about something which happens to have a narrow flat
part on the end of a handle and which just happens to more or less fit
in the slot
Richard == Richard Caley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Richard
Richard In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw)
writes:
gaw With CVS and non-diff-able, non-patch-able files we're talking about
gaw using a tool that's not even remotely suitable for the job at
gaw hand.
Richard
Richard Lets
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 20:32:01 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
Say I have a software project consisteing of some number of
directories with text files in it. I keep this in CVS because I want
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark A Flacy (maf) writes:
Richard Now, someone comes along and tells me every software project needs
Richard an icon, so this here GIF has to be part of the build. Obviously I
Richard need to version control it in sync with the source to be able to
Richard build
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
The abiliy
to get a diff is nice but way, way down the list.
gaw Until/unless you understand the fundamental nature of RCS files and the
gaw fact that CVS is merely an RCS front-end, you won't even have a clue why
gaw you are so
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 13:38:00 (-0800), EXT-Corcoran, David wrote: ]
Subject: RE: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why
or why not
less manipulate the screw. We really are talking instead about
hammering machine screws in with the handle
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 21:52:00 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
The abiliy
to get a diff is nice but way, way down the list.
gaw
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
gaw The GIF does need to be part of the build, and it is something that
gaw might change over time, but it doesn't necessarily have to be kept quite
gaw so closely in sync with the sources (an old GIF may work fine with a new
gaw product,
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 22:01:01 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
If your only reason for using CVS is to get diffs, then you will think
differently, but I would guess most people want versioning
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
gaw CVS can manage to keep track of some changes to some non-diff-able and
gaw non-patch-able files, but only under a very few and very limited
gaw circumstances.
no, it keeps track of all the changes. You never lose a change. What
it
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
Storing as diffs is just an optimisation, not a necessary
feature.
gaw It might not be a necessary feature, but it's the way RCS files work
gaw today and in combination with the forced concurrent edits feature of
gaw CVS, it makes it
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg A Woods (gaw) writes:
gaw Versioning _is_ diffs!
No, versioning is the ability to go back. Diffing the ability to
compare. One can use diffing to optimise versioning, but either can be
done independently.
gaw There's no point to keeping every revision of
--- Forwarded mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ On Tuesday, March 5, 2002 at 22:01:01 (GMT), Richard Caley wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
If your only reason for using CVS is to get diffs, then you will think
differently
Help,
When you CVS a project, import it into a repository,
should you add JAR files? Why or why not.
Thanks.
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back to an older version, just update the sandbox with that tag and run the
build again.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 10:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar
jerr writes:
When you CVS a project, import it into a repository,
should you add JAR files? Why or why not.
No. JAR files are generated -- you should only import source code.
-Larry Jones
You know how Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well MINE are even WORSE!
-- Calvin
When you CVS a project, import it into a repository,
should you add JAR files? Why or why not.
No. JAR files are generated -- you should only import source code.
unless ofcourse you got the jarfiles from some external source that you do
not have the sourcs for, but might want to control
[ On Monday, March 4, 2002 at 19:02:11 (+0100), Christian Andersson wrote: ]
Subject: Re: CVS and Jar files: Should you import Jar into the Repository? Why or
why not
When you CVS a project, import it into a repository,
should you add JAR files? Why or why not.
No. JAR files
unless ofcourse you got the jarfiles from some external source that you
do
not have the sourcs for, but might want to control in a project
anyway...
Then they are part of a separate module, and using CVS for this module
alone just for the illusion (and that's the _most_ it could ever be)
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