Uh, the plural of anecdote isn't data. Heck, you seem to be claiming that
the singular of anecdote is trend.
It isn't. The fact that some school is moving from java to C# says
absolutely nothing at all.
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On Dec 15, 9:56 pm, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
In any case, as I said, unfortunately you need to have some experience
in the NetBeans Platform in order to cut it down to a very small
infrastructure; and you need to do some boring configuration thing
(things are a bit
I was speaking to a student at our University today and it looks like
the introduction to programming is being moved from Java to C#.
I suppose that speaks of Java's demise in popularity as of late.
However it may also be just that at the time I was there, the person
who taught programming was
On 12/15/2010 12:06 PM, Carl Jokl wrote:
I was speaking to a student at our University today and it looks like
the introduction to programming is being moved from Java to C#.
I suppose that speaks of Java's demise in popularity as of late.
However it may also be just that at the time I was
On 15 December 2010 11:38, Fabrizio Giudici
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.itwrote:
On 12/15/2010 12:06 PM, Carl Jokl wrote:
I was speaking to a student at our University today and it looks like
the introduction to programming is being moved from Java to C#.
I suppose that speaks of Java's
I think this is a red herring. Compiling will be all but instantaneous for
most starter projects.
So many people seems to have something against red herring! Not fair,
it's a perfectly fine traditional Scandinavian x-mas dish, enjoyed
with 45% aquavit: http://goo.gl/1KkA9 :)
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On 12/15/2010 01:21 PM, Casper Bang wrote:
It seems to me that both the (now abandoned) beans binding as well as
the (also abandoned) JavaFX Script language revolved around the same
paradigm of modelling behavior, so the Visual Basic and C# approach
can't be all bad.
BeansBinding is not
I can't speak to Beans Binding, but a fork of SAF named BSAF (Better Swing
Application Framework) is alive and well:
http://kenai.com/projects/bsaf/pages/Home
I'm working on my own port that focuses on automatically making apps look and
behave like first class citizens on Mac OS and taking
I like the approach my University had for CS degrees, learning a
language is up to you.
You'd get no credit if you took a course in any computer language (it
wouldn't count towards your degree), and the little bit of actual
language learning would happen under labs but not be a formal thing in
On Dec 15, 2010, at 6:34 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
On 12/15/2010 02:41 PM, Casper Bang wrote:
Well I am of course talking about the original Beans Binding
(JSR-295), as well as it's sister project Swing App Framework
(JSR-296) which depends on it. Perhaps your definition of abandoned
On 12/15/2010 09:04 PM, Rob Ross wrote:
Well, that *was* the stated goal : A simple app framework designed for small to
medium sized desktop apps that is easy to learn and quickly develop on. If
you're going to write an IDE yourself, SAF is probably not the framework for
you. If you're going
On 12/13/2010 07:09 PM, Vince O'Sullivan wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:22 pm, CKoernerchessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Java is a great language, but I wonder if the the next generation of
programmers would be better served with formal training in Javascript
rather than Java.
I would say both. Formally
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote:
Java on the other hand... Its interest nowadays is purely vocational,
there's nothing Java can offer from an educational perspective that isn't
best served with some other language.
I disagree, I think it's
Maybe to answer the debate we should ask ourselves, why was Java
choosen to be used as the reference language in the first place? What
language was in use prior and what made them switch? What was the
developer environment back when Java became the language of choice to
teach vs what it is today?
Pascal. I think that answers all your questions.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:01 PM, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe to answer the debate we should ask ourselves, why was Java
choosen to be used as the reference language in the first place? What
language was in use prior and what
I have fond memories of Turbo Pascal. Sad that Delphi didn't manage to
grow. But I digress.
On Dec 14, 10:02 am, Ricky Clarkson ricky.clark...@gmail.com wrote:
Pascal. I think that answers all your questions.
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Much of Delphi lives on in C# though. But I digress as well.
On Dec 14, 4:06 pm, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com wrote:
I have fond memories of Turbo Pascal. Sad that Delphi didn't manage to
grow. But I digress.
On Dec 14, 10:02 am, Ricky Clarkson ricky.clark...@gmail.com wrote:
Pascal.
On 12/14/2010 03:53 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Kevin Wright
kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com mailto:kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote:
Java on the other hand... Its interest nowadays is purely
vocational, there's nothing Java can offer from an educational
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 12:29 +0100, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
On 12/13/2010 07:09 PM, Vince O'Sullivan wrote:
On Dec 13, 1:22 pm, CKoernerchessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Java is a great language, but I wonder if the the next generation of
programmers would be better served with formal training in
On 14 December 2010 15:01, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe to answer the debate we should ask ourselves, why was Java
choosen to be used as the reference language in the first place? What
language was in use prior and what made them switch? What was the
developer environment back
For 25+ years now I have been a strong advocate of starting with a
dynamic language (Scheme, Miranda (now Haskell), Groovy, Python)
followed rapidly by a compiled language (C++, D, Java) followed by
another language from the dynamic group followed by another language
form the static group. At
On Dec 14, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
Pascal. I think that answers all your questions.
+1.
That's a really great starting language, and teaches the basic concepts for
writing well encapsulated, structured, procedural code.
Of the languages I've looked at in the last few
Sorry, I meant that Pascal answered all the questions from the
previous post, not that Pascal answers all questions ever.
Any language that forces declarations to the top of the enclosing
block is a potentially harmful one to teach.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rob Ross rob.r...@gmail.com
On 12/14/2010 04:41 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
Programmers would be better trained if the first language they're taught
is a traditional that compiles into native code, such as C. You know
You are joking, aren't you? Students should know C or C++ before they
graduate, but it is not a good
Maybe they should use Ruby, why not start with the most enjoyable
programming language ever created? :)
I just think that given JavaScripts wide availability on so many
platforms, its key role in web development, it is the 'new Java'. You
can teach basic CS things in any language, why not do it
You can't teach about static typing in JavaScript. Its scope rules
are terrible. The debuggers aren't great.
I suggest some C or Haskell to go with it at least, but really Python
or Scheme are better dynamic languages to learn with.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 5:03 PM, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com
I would be a bit concerned about JavaScript for the most part being
tied to the browser rather than a general purpose language.
Would this affect teaching of things like IO given that options from
JavaScript in the browser are limited. Perhaps by the time students
are looking at these kinds of
Basic was supposed to be about introducing beginners to programming. I
would worry that the likes of Visual Basic would teach/encourage
students into bad programming practices.
I may complain about Java (Joy! Another Verbose Algol), but when I compare
it to some of the stuff that's been
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 16:05 +, Kevin Wright wrote:
Since when has Haskell been dynamic? Hindley and Milner would *not*
be amused to hear that...
Fair point. That'll teach me to try and keep two email replies on the
go at once.
The point is really about being able to run code without
On Dec 14, 2:00 pm, Russel Winder rus...@russel.org.uk wrote:
The point is really about being able to run code without having to
explicitly compile it. This doesn't necessarily mean having a REPL, I
actually think they tend to be hugely counter productive for first
learning -- and I really
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 17:54 +0100, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
On 12/14/2010 04:41 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
Programmers would be better trained if the first language they're taught
is a traditional that compiles into native code, such as C. You know
You are joking, aren't you? Students
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 08:35 -0800, Rob Ross wrote:
[ . . . ]
Of the languages I've looked at in the last few years, I think Python
comes closest as a modern replacement. A two semester course in Python
could start with just the procedural/functional uses, and the second
semester could
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 11:07 -0800, Eric Jablow wrote:
[ . . . ]
So we schould not go back to Scheme, using SICP as textbook?
SICP was a fine textbook, and Scheme a fine language. But that was 24
years ago. SICP remains a book that people should read but I think it's
time as a first programming
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Russel Winder rus...@russel.org.ukwrote:
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 16:05 +, Kevin Wright wrote:
Since when has Haskell been dynamic? Hindley and Milner would *not*
be amused to hear that...
Fair point. That'll teach me to try and keep two email replies
I think this is a red herring. Compiling will be all but instantaneous for
most starter projects.
The important thing is to give quick gratification to students, which both
compiled and interpreted languages offer.
I agree that having a REPL would be a good thing to have, and while Java
On Dec 14, 5:03 pm, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe they should use Ruby, why not start with the most enjoyable
programming language ever created? :)
You mean Visual Basic? I don't think my people would agree with you
there.
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On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote:
It takes all sorts to make the world go round, it's quite amazing what some
people find enjoyable.
A typical VB user, experiencing contentment at one of his favourite
pastimes:
On 12/14/2010 08:24 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
It sounds as though the real problem you had was that programming was
being taught by people who didn't understand programming. You used the
word mathematician to describe the teachers and given your description
of syllabus either you were not a
On Dec 13, 1:22 pm, CKoerner chessm...@gmail.com wrote:
Java is a great language, but I wonder if the the next generation of
programmers would be better served with formal training in Javascript
rather than Java.
I would say both. Formally trained programmers should be exposed to
several
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