Paul J. Ste. Marie said:
> The dispatchers and tower operators at the time had
> huge paper sheets and the time each train passed a waypoint on the track
> was logged. I don't remember if it was to the second on the paper forms,
> but I wouldn't be surprised. The dispatch system certainly did so
On Thu 2011-11-17T21:38:56 +, Poul-Henning Kamp hath writ:
> Hence the "pretty much any", in addition to MVS, I only know one
> other operating system which is configured to deal with leapseconds
> by default.
That feature evolved from IBM S/390 into z/OS.
The manual which describes how to use
In message <4ec575a7.20...@ste-marie.org>, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" writes:
>On 11/17/2011 7:10 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp allegedly wrote:
>> Well, same situation as UNIX, Windows and pretty much any other
>> operating system in the world.
>
>Mainframe OS's (MVS, etc) handle leapseconds perfectly well.
H
On 2011-11-17, at 21:56, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> On Nov 17, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Nero Imhard wrote:
>>
>> I would say that the use case is quite irrelevant. The use case dictates the
>> choice of time scale, not the other way. Fundamentally changing the
>> definition of a time scale is an insult to
"Actual stuff"? There's a whole other sermon…
These are tools for characterizing an "actual effect" in the "actual sky" that
will affect "actual operations" of the Air Force Space Command.
The proceedings are being finalized and should be available next week. In the
mean time feel free to rea
On 11/17/2011 7:10 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp allegedly wrote:
Well, same situation as UNIX, Windows and pretty much any other
operating system in the world.
Mainframe OS's (MVS, etc) handle leapseconds perfectly well. The system
clock counts true seconds (actually some fraction thereof) and the
Rob Seaman wrote:
>
> > Can you (or another participant) give me some concrete examples of
> > stuff that needs leap seconds and don't already have well established
> > mechanisms for adjusting the time output from their GPS or other time
> > keeping equipment appropriately?
>
> See
> http://www.
On Nov 17, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Nero Imhard wrote:
> On 2011-11-17, at 19:57, Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote:
>
>> Count me in with the uninformed then and please help inform us. (Just to be
>> clear here; I'm completely serious - I understand the general concept of
>> course, but I genuinely don't under
On 11/17/2011 6:30 AM, Daniel R. Tobias allegedly wrote:
It seems rather bizarre that they'd have to *change* a standard in
order to *keep on following* the standard that's been in effect since
1972, namely the use of leap seconds.
Yeah. I'd have to track down the FRA references, but when I
On 2011-11-17, at 19:57, Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote:
> Count me in with the uninformed then and please help inform us. (Just to be
> clear here; I'm completely serious - I understand the general concept of
> course, but I genuinely don't understand the specific use cases for having
> leap seconds
In message <4acea877-9c04-4e6d-a563-831ee17e9...@noao.edu>, Rob Seaman writes:
>And no evidence whatsoever that redefining UTC will not cause even bigger
>problems for these same communities and industries. Nobody has looked.
Just like there is no evidence that it would cause any trouble at all
On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:57 AM, Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote:
> I've been following the list for a while and seen many examples of
> communities and significant industries where leap seconds are causing problems
But you've seen no investigations of the significance of the problems, and only
anecdotal e
On 17 Nov, 2011, at 09:37 , Steve Allen wrote:
> On Thu 2011-11-17T06:49:59 -0800, Steve Allen hath writ:
>> It works like the javascript on this page
>> http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/epochtime.html
>> which risks restarting some totally pedantic and legalistic
>> arguments of the sort we'r
On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:21, Rob Seaman wrote:
I've been following the list for a while and seen many examples of communities
and significant industries where leap seconds are causing problems (and just
stopping them with cause no new friction).
> That you can't imagine that any system or proce
On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> No, that means that all trains built in the last approx 10 years, are
> built without handling for leap seconds.
Train systems are bigger than this one standard. Other aspects of their
logistics will exhibit different timekeeping behavior
In message <1ed491e6-004f-4571-afdf-fefd4c255...@noao.edu>, Rob Seaman writes:
>On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> You seem to have misunderstood something very fundamental here:
>
>You are the one that started by describing a Danish project management scandal.
And you are
On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> You seem to have misunderstood something very fundamental here:
You are the one that started by describing a Danish project management scandal.
> UIC is the International Union of Railroads. UIC 556 affects all railroads
> in the world.
On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <3b099ba0-b740-4d80-998c-9dbc7d4ac...@noao.edu>, Rob Seaman writes:
>
>> Real-world issues will occur whether or not they are aware of the issue and
>> whether or not they regard it as important.
>
> I'm sorry to say it so blunt
In message <1f82f107-a699-4bc4-8e19-66bd9215f...@noao.edu>, Rob Seaman writes:
>On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
>If the Danish railways [...]
You seem to have misunderstood something very fundamental here:
UIC is the International Union of Railroads. UIC 556 affects all
railroad
On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
> It is a problem with the current system.
No, it is a feature of the current solution. The problem is civil timekeeping.
The current solution is Coordinated Universal TIme, that is, mean solar time
(and the details we're all familiar with). A
In message <3b099ba0-b740-4d80-998c-9dbc7d4ac...@noao.edu>, Rob Seaman writes:
>On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:02 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>Real-world issues will occur whether or not they are aware of the issue and
> whether or not they regard it as important.
I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, but you
On Thu 2011-11-17T06:49:59 -0800, Steve Allen hath writ:
> It works like the javascript on this page
> http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/epochtime.html
> which risks restarting some totally pedantic and legalistic
> arguments of the sort we're now seeing about POSIX and C time
> because the stan
On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Rob Seaman wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:29 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>> That's the problem with leap seconds in a nutshell, btw.
>>
>> Nobody but extreme time geeks thinks about them. Nobody thinks they are
>> important. Nobody thinks that they matter.
>
> The
On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:02 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> First: I have an estimate on the recertification cost from a credible
> industry source.
Citation? Methodology?
…and is recertification actually necessary given the circumstances? This is a
shell game. There is no equivalence between t
On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:29 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
> That's the problem with leap seconds in a nutshell, btw.
>
> Nobody but extreme time geeks thinks about them. Nobody thinks they are
> important. Nobody thinks that they matter.
They don't matter but civilization will topple if they exist? C
On Nov 17, 2011, at 7:30 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
> On 17 Nov 2011 at 11:20, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> But the really interesting thing to remember here, is that if you
>> "asked the railroads about leap seconds", what are the chances you
>> would get somebody on the other end of the line
In message <4ec51a73.6664.2a84f...@dan.tobias.name>, "Daniel R. Tobias" writes:
>On 17 Nov 2011 at 11:20, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>It seems rather bizarre that they'd have to *change* a standard in
>order to *keep on following* the standard that's been in effect since
>1972, namely the use of l
In message , Rob Seaman writes:
>On Nov 17, 2011, at 4:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> A) The majority of rolling stock built in the last 10 years
>> or
>> B) A few astronomical telescopes.
>>
>> Actually, I don't wonder, I know the answer to that one: You can
>> build several ELT's for w
On 17 Nov 2011 at 11:20, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> But the really interesting thing to remember here, is that if you
> "asked the railroads about leap seconds", what are the chances you
> would get somebody on the other end of the line, who knew that the
> MVB standards would have to be revised,
On 2011 Nov 17, at 05:31, Peter Vince wrote:
> the lack of leap-seconds in most of Canada. How does that work?
It works like the javascript on this page
http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/epochtime.html
which risks restarting some totally pedantic and legalistic
arguments of the sort we're now
On Nov 17, 2011, at 4:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> We're having a bit of a project management scandal in Denmark related
> to purchase of 83 "IC4" trains.
I suspect I'm not the only American reading this wishing more of our scandals
were about trains...
> Reasearching this, I have been rea
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply. That is fascinating. I wasn't aware of
the lack of leap-seconds in most of Canada. How does that work? Are
they 16 seconds ahead of the rest of the world? That's one of the
reasons I love this chat-group - little bits of knowledge from people
in a wide va
In message <2017112629.ga1...@davros.org>, "Clive D.W. Feather" writes:
>Poul-Henning Kamp said:
>> Notation for the TIMEDATE48 type
>>
>> Definition
>> A structured type expressing the absolute time in number
>> of seconds since Universal Co-ordinated Time (UTC), 00:00:00
Poul-Henning Kamp said:
> We're having a bit of a project management scandal in Denmark related
> to purchase of 83 "IC4" trains.
>
> Reasearching this, I have been reading up on MVB, "Multi Vehicle
> Bus" (IEC61375) which is how modern rail-hardware talks to each
> other, which is good geek mater
Poul-Henning Kamp said:
>>> (Unix and ANSI-C format).
> Doing that, it is immediately obvious to even the causual observer,
> that the job of the parantheses is to settle any questions with
> respect to leapseconds by saying "Like UNIX, we don't have them".
But C does have them. Indeed, C90 allo
In message <4ec4f046.2030...@ste-marie.org>, "Paul J. Ste. Marie" writes:
>On 11/17/2011 3:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp allegedly wrote:
>> Definition
>> A structured type expressing the absolute time in number
>> of seconds since Universal Co-ordinated Time (UTC), 00:00:00,
>> 1st Janu
Paul J. Ste. Marie wrote:
>This is abundantly clear
Clear, but in the POSIX standard it's immediately redefined to mean
something other than what it clearly says. It defines "seconds since
the epoch" to be a numerical encoding of UTC timestamps, *not* a linear
count of seconds. The MVB standard
On 11/17/2011 3:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp allegedly wrote:
Definition
A structured type expressing the absolute time in number
of seconds since Universal Co-ordinated Time (UTC), 00:00:00,
1st January 1970
This is abundantly clear--and leap-seconds are irrelevant, since
We're having a bit of a project management scandal in Denmark related
to purchase of 83 "IC4" trains.
Reasearching this, I have been reading up on MVB, "Multi Vehicle
Bus" (IEC61375) which is how modern rail-hardware talks to each
other, which is good geek material btw, some smart thinking in
the
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