Hello Danny.
I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything wrong
here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've seen gay
people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, after all,
that's just jokes and humor.
About being offended, again that's not a
Hi,
I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who has left
most of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the
extremely toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I
stayed on the LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate
see
A someone whose been an associate member of FSF for maybe over a decade
I do see it as highly problematic that the FSF staff were not given a
heads up before his return to the board was announced. The fact that
this seemed to happen impromptu during a live event is a sign of a lack
o
Hello Deb,
I hope you're well.
Sorry for your experience. However, I should mention that I've been working
directly with RMS along with many women and never seen such thing. I can't
explain anything on behalf of RMS or GNU, but I can talk about my personal
experience and my women colleagues whi
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:39 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hay...@riseup.net>
wrote:
Hello Deb,
I hope you're well.
Thanks, you too.
Sorry for your experience. However, I should mention that I've been
working directly with RMS along with many women and never seen such
On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:
An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they usually
don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they "don't
believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's happening,
because no one feels safe tell
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:04 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hay...@riseup.net>
wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they
usually
> don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they
"don
Em 25/03/2021 20:57, Ali Reza Hayati escreveu:
> FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's no need to add to
> the pile. Please send your support for RMS to i...@fsf.org and ask them to
> resist pressures and stay with us.
>
> Software libre is a matter of justice. If we can lear
On 26/03/2021 14:03, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:
An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they usually
don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they "don't
believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's
I'd like to share an experience of mine with Richard Stallman, and
some reflections on the current situation.
In about 2010 or so, I went to the Trenton Computer Festival. Richard
was slated to talk. It was a treat to have him speak close to home
for me. I also noticed that he was listed as a l
On 26/03/2021 18:56, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote:
However, if you use the wrong pronoun once and get corrected, then do it
again and keep getting it wrong. That could be construed as you not
listening or respecting that person.
Yes. That is disrespectful but assault? I don't thi
Hello,
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:05 PM Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
> Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF to resist this
> pressure and continue work for the good of the software libre movement.
Why do you keep saying the "accusations are false"? There have been
dozens (hundreds?) of ac
* Thomas Lord [2021-03-26 02:21]:
> Having been personally close enough to see how some of the EFF founders
> thought, I will remain comfortable damning the organization in absolute
> terms. Nothing in their history of advocacy has changed my mind. Obviously
> other people without that direct ex
* Ali Reza Hayati [2021-03-26 02:17]:
> Yes. I've seen this. EFF does a wonderful job but they're not
> defending software libre movement, at least in this matter.
That is definitely immoral from organizational viewpoint, they lobby
now who is to be on board of other organization. EFF is thus cor
* Adrienne G. Thompson [2021-03-26 06:31]:
>Just found an open letter in support of RMS:
>[1]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
Such things should not be on Github as they add to the conflict that
is beyond purpose of Github. Once Github removes the hate mongering,
they may as well rem
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-03-25 19:52]:
>And then Kat Walsh resigned from the board:
>
>I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board. (Effective end of
>Thursday, for administrative reasons.) It's a decision that has been a
>long time coming for me, but still a hard one: I thin
Who is on Github:
https://github.com/gnusupport/rms-support-letter.github.io
Fork the repository, then in your forked repository you will find a
link and instructions how to create the yaml file with your name and
link, open up pull request to include your signature there.
Jean
_
* Ali Reza Hayati [2021-03-26 00:03]:
> As I said, there's no "proof". A story, even if the whole world
> tells it, doesn't matter unless there's proof.
It does not matter for people with integrity, as such would not accuse
without evidences. That is why we have courts, justice systems. They
are
On Thu, 2021-03-25 at 21:44 +0430, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
> I wrote this blog post:
> https://alirezahayati.com/2021/03/25/fight-against-idiocy-support-rms/
>
> Please send your support of RMS to i...@fsf.org. This would be much
> appreciated.
I don't think RMS should be "cancelled". If FSF wan
* Adrienne G. Thompson [2021-03-26 00:43]:
>I was in the process of drafting an email to [2]i...@fsf.org when I
>received your message. I'll be sending it today, and wish to encourage
>others to email messages of support too - asap!
>Also, please don't forget that Alexandre Oliva h
It is one thing to raise legitimate concerns in a legitimate way,
but a different matter to support a campaign based on blatent lies
and mischaracterisations, that stifles discussions (as the "open
letter" does not allow any constructive criticism) and aims at
character assassination.
Deb Nic
>> Re: RMS is back on board
Hi,
I recall there has been some reason to avoid Github, but discussing
the support of RMS being back on board, I thought of sharing a link
https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
in case you are not aware of it yet. I consider mailing FSF a better
option, yet I was hap
s of support too - asap!
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, please don't forget that Alexandre Oliva has been axed on
>>>>> account of
>>>>> canvassing support for RMS' reinstatement. RMS will need support
>>>>> from
>>>&g
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:44:32PM +0430, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
> I wrote this blog post:
> https://alirezahayati.com/2021/03/25/fight-against-idiocy-support-rms/
Thank you for this, it's a fantastic read. I'd urge anyone who can to
spread it.
Best regards,
Ivan
The statement (open letter) is based on lies, yes.
Do people who accuse RMS of assault are lying? I don't know that but since
there's no evidence/proof, I just can't believe them.
I've seen various people even convicted of assault and then proven to be
innocent so I refuse to accept anything un
Interesting perspective, worth engaging with. It covers everything from
the term free/libre and beer, to Microsoft and IEC 62304, to not
getting credit and reactionary attitudes.
“Free Software”: An idea whose time has passed
[1]Robert M. Lefkowitz
Almost forty years ago, in 198
I’m not clear on why I should send a message of support for RMS.
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hay...@riseup.net>
wrote:
People,
FSF board has received lots of messages today and there's no need to
add
to the pile. Please send your support for RM
I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia shares
several years of experience working at FSF and directly with RMS. Ali,
their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software movement
needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
[1]https://twitte
I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also
deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously,
these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to the
opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are bring extremely valuable
perspective — the so
The reason I bothered speaking up here is because there is a trend
toward dismissiveness. Seek ways to lump the critics in with the bad
actors. Reject an analogy because it's not equivalent.
Those are the methods by which we *avoid* learning all we can learn.
If our goal is indeed to gain all the
On 26/03/2021 15:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also
deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obviously,
these negative reports about RMS being presented *here* amounts to the
opposite of an echo-chamber. These voices are brin
It's wrong to describe people as "whistle blowers" when they
have not produced a complaint that stands up to scrutiny.
-t
On 2021-03-26 08:54, Aaron Wolf wrote:
I really appreciate seeing the perspective from Georgia. Thanks also
deeply to Deb Nicholson for engaging here in this space. Obvious
"What we need to do, is have very robust standards of how people
behave, drawn up by and for the community,"
The only "problem" you seem to have a solution for is the one of a few
people making fairly ridiculous accusations and complaints. Your
solution is apparently to put them in charge of
That's silly. The FSF was unionized with the encouragement and support
of the FSF executives and board, including RMS, because unions are
good, at least while the injustice of wage labor still exists.
> he also caused harm to people and to the FSF organization and the
free software
"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it. That's the
reason."
As a matter of history that is simply and purely a lie.
I don't see any of that kind of complaint, at this point, as anything
less or more than direct attempts to sabotage the FSF, the FSM, and
G
So basically some people are claiming RMS helped to set up a union to protect
people from himself and that's one reason not to support RMS.
You guys are making me support him more.
On March 26, 2021 5:51:57 PM UTC, Thomas Lord wrote:
>"It is union to try to protect people from RMS. / That's it.
Weird.
Danny:
>> I have no doubt RMS was supportive.
On March 26, 2021 6:02:52 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
>Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet
>again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a union
>because RMS was causing harm and dysfu
Yes. Every "movement"-type organization I have ever associated with
goes through period of time when people come and try to divide and
conquer, drumming up false complaints, trying to impose new rules that
will, gosh, give themselves power over others, trying to discredit the
most effective
No "path forward" is needed in reaction to people repeating the same
accusations that don't stand up to scrutiny.
Where we need paths forward is in strategic and tactical decisions
about what free software to try to bring into existence, and what can
be done to expand the mass of p
On 26/03/2021 18:25, Thomas Lord wrote:
No "path forward" is needed in reaction to people repeating the same
accusations that don't stand up to scrutiny.
Where we need paths forward is in strategic and tactical decisions
about what free software to try to bring into existence, a
Hi everyone,
I appreciate the calm, measured voices I've heard here. I would also
like to take some of the heat out of this discussion and contribute my
point of view. I usually just lurk here, not sure since when. I've
been donating to and volunteering for different Free Software groups for
ma
I agree with you we should take feedback seriously, however:
Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "…the fact that he
faced
consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not
the
decades of shitty behavior…"
These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha
online
s
Thank you for sharing your comment. Please let me add mine too.
El 2021-03-26 09:33, murph escribió:
> I walked away that day, not energized about supporting Free Software,
> but instead thinking about the man that was in the front of the room
> talking about it. Was this the right person to fu
At the risk of oversimplification,...
It is bad practice for a movement to protect people who behave badly
and have demonstrated an unwillingness or inability to change their
behavior — because they have made some good contributions.
It’s ever worse practice to pretend people “well
Thomas, you keep using the word “lies” to refer testimonies in this
thread from former FSF staff.
Do you mean to say that these people are all lying?
Also, more importantly, are you implying that Paul and Aaron and Deb
and every proposal for a path forward is all... bad?
On Fri
If someone else organizes something and you support it, that’s great.
That in no way means that the supporter was the leader.
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:06 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]hay...@riseup.net>
wrote:
Weird.
Danny:
>> I have no doubt RMS was supportive.
On Marc
A union certainly helped everyone set and keep healthy boundaries. I
have no doubt RMS was supportive. Like Paul suggested, a set of
community agreements or a code of conduct or a contributor covenant or
whatever is generally a good thing.
But as for the reason why staff organized th
My apologies! Please accept these two edits:
I don’t know *why you say it’s simply a lie. Here’s another testimony
from *another former FSF staff member:
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:55 AM Danny Spitzberg
<[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don’t know you say it’s simply a lie. H
Ali, I’m disappointed but not surprised you came to that conclusion yet
again. The history seems to be the opposite: FSF staff organized a
union because RMS was causing harm and dysfunction, and at best, RMS
went along and accepted it as a net positive state of affairs.
On Fri, Mar
Confirmation bias is a heck of a drug. It feels good feel right- to
draw conclusions, accept only supporting evidence, and reject
everything else. Fo a year now it seems people want to frame everything
as a matter of “character assassination” — and that is why the line
Aaron quoted a
Consider the fact that several FSF staff are going public for having
organized and joined a union in order to protect themselves against the
whims and wills of RMS, like if he suddenly decided to take away health
insurance for everyone or other workplace dysfunction.
Forming a union
I don’t know you say it’s simply a lie. Here’s another testimony from
former a SFS staff member:
“I worked at the FSF for 3 years and volunteered for over 6 years —
that ended in 2004. I witnessed misogyny, sexual objectification, and
abuse carried out by RMS. I banded together with
"Things have been different with RMS. He has consistently stood out for
years with bad behavior."
Simply repeating that lie will not make it true.
Stop wasting everyone's time.
-t
On 2021-03-26 11:44, Florian Snow wrote:
Hi everyone,
I appreciate the calm, measured voices I've heard here.
Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for improving
the way people are treated within the free software movement is being
seen by some on this list as "hateful" or somehow in "opposition to
free software." I honestly don't see how creating a haven for sexist
behavio
murph wrote:
I'd like to share an experience of mine with Richard Stallman, and
some reflections on the current situation.
In about 2010 or so, I went to the Trenton Computer Festival. Richard
was slated to talk. It was a treat to have him speak close to home
for me. I also noticed that he wa
This has gotten beyond absurd. For years, this list has not been used
discuss developments, share projects, or even coordionate transportation
and lodging. It has been dominated by a few people making the same
accusations again and again, and having others push back. The
accusations have
We have seen in cases like social media, Internet advertising, and so
on the following examples of attacks on freedom (in no particular
order):
* CSS hacks that hide what is going on in a web page to fool users.
* Javascript hacks that are non-free code and that spy on users, but
I was referring to Deb Nicholson's post here on LibrePlanet. In other
words, her speaking up about concerns around RMS is *not* a pattern of
dogpiling in some public thing signaling your side. Instead, Deb came
here where she knows many people are not sympathetic to her concerns,
and she took the t
Thomas, you are using the fact that *some* accusations have not held up
to scrutiny in order to conclude that all accusations have been
scrutinized and not held up.
I wonder if you would be more gracious if the accusers did more to
emphasize both the unfair aspects of some accusations and emphasiz
I think I have made it quite clear, Aaron, that I don't believe you are
doing more here than wasting still more of everyone's time, rehashing
the same old assertions on a list not established for that purpose,
picking at scabs. I can't tell whether you are malicious or just
confused but eithe
On Saturday, March 27, 2021,
<[1]libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org> wrote:
From: Deb Nicholson <[2]d...@eximiousproductions.com>
Well, it's disappointing but not surprising that a call for
improving the
way people are treated within the free software movement is
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, <[1]libreplanet-discuss-request@
libreplanet.org> wrote:
From: Thomas Lord <[2]l...@basiscraft.com>
Message-ID: <[3]6bc558831387fffe03f01cf7bfa71...@basiscraft.com>
Has anyone explored a new approach to multi-media hypertext -- one
not
ti
Luke, I appreciate your mention of the CRNHQ stuff. I have not seen that
exact material before but many other things like it. I agree
wholeheartedly that this sort of recognition of victim mentality is
important.
Another framing is to say that we can have a TO-ME attitude (victim
consciousness) or
None of the systems you named fit what I described, which is a
network of explicit peering (each node chooses and cooperates with
peers), using rsync to propagate multi-media hypertext. Period.
-t
On 2021-03-26 22:27, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, <[1]libre
Thomas, I'll be blunt and clear here: You seem to believe that I oppose
RMS and just agree with the people who want him ousted. You are wrong.
You seem not to be recognizing that this community includes people who
are neither on the side of defend-RMS-and-reject-all-attacks nor the
side of RMS-is-
I'll be blunt as well:
This list was not created for for endless discussion of RMS' or anyone
else's alleged virtues or vices. I haven't engaged with you on those
questions because they don't belong here.
-t
On 2021-03-26 22:47, Aaron Wolf wrote:
Thomas, I'll be blunt and clear here: You
On Saturday, March 27, 2021,
<[1]libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org> wrote:
and I'm not talking about the
unfair out-of-context gotcha stuff, I'm talking about the pattern of
awkward behavior the is both more subtle and persistent, the stuff
that
has discour
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, Thomas Lord <[1]l...@basiscraft.com>
wrote:
None of the systems you named fit what I described, which is a
network of explicit peering (each node chooses and cooperates with
peers), using rsync to propagate multi-media hypertext. Period.
fanta
Thanks Luke, that's well said, and that's how I see things as well.
Except for the one detail that I'm not sure how much the people who have
been close to RMS are actually unaware. I suspect they see it clearly
too and that's one reason many of them spent years tolerating things and
working to hel
On Saturday, March 27, 2021,
<[1]libreplanet-discuss-requ...@libreplanet.org> wrote:
Aaron wrote:
across that way. I think avoiding that impression is helpful, and I
hope
she can consider your feedback for whatever utility it can bring her
*even though* I think you
Good. Now let's spend a few months dissecting and discussing YOU TWO's
psychology, personality, and so forth, your alleged vices, how you are
tragic figures in our chin-stroking opinions, what authority systems we
can use to prevent you from causing problems, and so on. That's why
people si
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, Aaron Wolf <[1]wolft...@riseup.net> wrote:
make the difference. The various free software activists who have
worked
with RMS are not specifically experts on Asperger's or similar, so
even
if they *get* that he is that way, that doesn't mean
hI all.
firstly appologies for adding to this tempest in a cup of tea. As just
recently stated by mr. Thomas Lord: "This list was not created for for
endless discussion of RMS' or anyone else's alleged virtues or vices."
secondly, thank you mr. Ali Reza Hayati for the post you've s
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, Thomas Lord <[1]l...@basiscraft.com>
wrote:
Good. Now let's spend a few months dissecting and discussing YOU
TWO's psychology, personality, and so forth, your alleged vices,
how long have you got? vices, mmm :)
how you are tragic figures in
On Saturday, March 27, 2021, Máirín Duffy <[1]du...@redhat.com> wrote:
Luke: this response is patronizing and an example of a failure to
exercise empathy and assume an appropriate level of assertiveness in
dialogue.
Mairin this is very valuable feedback for me which I genuinely
75 matches
Mail list logo
