From: "Sean Donelan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: History of the EPO (Emergency Power Off)
The interesting thing about the EPO and data centers is it wasn't
orginally for life-safety, but came out of a recommendation by IBM
to the NFPA for property protection.<<
Fwiw, the EPO on IBM's mainf
At 08:10 PM 7/25/2007, Sean Donelan wrote:
Sometimes you need to revisit the rules. For example, for folks
thought having automatic water sprinklers in data centers was a bad
thing. Slowly folks have started to rethink it, and now automatic
sprinklers are
found in more data centers. I don't
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff Aitken) writes:
> ..., we had a failure at another datacenter that uses Piller units, which
> operate on the same basic principle as the Hitec ones. ...
i guess i never understood why anyone would install a piller that far from
the equator. (it spins like a top, on a ve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Jonathan Lassoff") writes:
> Well, the fact still remains that operating a datacenter smack-dab in
> the center of some of the most inflated real estate in recent history
> is quite a castly endeavor.
yes. (speaking for both 365 main, and 529 bryant.)
> I really wouldn't be
The interesting thing about the EPO and data centers is it wasn't
orginally for life-safety, but came out of a recommendation by IBM
to the NFPA for property protection.
But like many things, the original reasoning been lost to history, and
the codes grew in different ways.
http://www.dat
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
>
>
> Many years ago, the safety department for my employer made a big stink
> over the fact that the EPO hadn't been tested in a couple of years. We
> scheduled an outage window, shut everything down. The facilities guy
> pressed the
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
>
{good examples deleted...}
> There are a very few exceptions, but for our practical
> purposes, people really ought to simply go to multiple
> site redundancy rather than thinking about bending
> major safety assumptions in how we op
On 25-jul-2007, at 6:30, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
I think the combined effect of these things means
- we will not be running into a wall at any time
- availability of IPs will slowly decrease over time (as cost
slowly increases)
I have to disagree here. 10% of the requests are for 90% of the 1
On 24-jul-2007, at 0:41, Durand, Alain wrote:
1) What is the IPv6 'service'?
For example, is it reasonable to define a 'basic' level
service as web+mail and an 'extended' service as everything else?
Random ideas include for example offering a lower cost
'basic' service with v6 that
> I believe that we'll see extensive use of NAT for client-only
> services (just look at many broadband residential services
> today), but that won't help business customers who want
> a block for the DMZ servers.
think a few million /27s or /29s with publicly accessible services on
one of those
If you don't have water-based fire suppression, have normally unoccupied
spaces, and are continuously manned, it's sometimes possible to pass on
having an EPO. YMMV by inspector.
That is indeed true, as we were able to have ours disconnected, and
were able to expand our facility without addi
>I've always wondered who died or was injured and caused the EPO to
>come in to existence. There have been lots of "EPO caused downtime"
>stories, but does anyone on the NANOG list even have one single
>"Thank God for the EPO" story? I'll feel better about the general
>state of the world if
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Leo Bicknell wrote:
> What I found interesting is that a single EPO is not a hard and fast
> rule. They walked me through a twisty maze of the national electric
> code, the national fire code, and local regulations. Through that
> journey, they left me with a rather interest
>If they can be avoided, why do we put up with them?
Major electrical fire, or arcing in the datacenter.
Flood in the datacenter.
Accidental water sprinkler discharge in the datacenter.
Equipment fire that the FM-200 didn't put out, and you want
not to have the sprinklers go off if you can
>Seems like the EPO should be a logical AND with the fire alarm system -
>it only works AFTER you have an existing fire alarm in the building.
No, no. If the fire alarm system fails, the fire responders need
to be able to hit the EPO and be sure that it works anyways.
It has to be an absolute
Michael Dillon writes:
>> And the stories that the power guy I'm working with tells
>> about foreign facilities, particularly in middle east war
>> zones, are really scary...
>
>> We fundamentally do not have the facilities problem
>> completely nailed down to the point that things will never
A few weeks ago a rural farmer in southern Maryland succumbed
to methane gas in a manure pile. His wife went to rescue him,
and she too collapsed. Their two daughters followed.
All 4 died.
And that is why we have EPO's; to keep the rescuers from become
cascade victims.
--
A host is a host f
On Jul 25, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Jul 25, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET wrote:
If they can be avoided, why do we put up with them? Do we really
want our colo in downtown San Francisco bad enough to take the risk
of having a single point of failure? How can w
In fact, an EPO system is a single point of failure...
And, whether or not you need an EPO in your center is wholly up to you,
and how you design your center.
As mentioned at a recent seminar I went to:
"If you do not need to install non-plenum rated cable below a floor, and
you require boxes
I've always wondered who died or was injured and caused the EPO to
come in to existence. There have been lots of "EPO caused downtime"
stories, but does anyone on the NANOG list even have one single
"Thank God for the EPO" story? I'll feel better about the general
state of the world if I kn
Or:
"So I'm working at this place that is really cheap... Our CTO
believes that it is stupid to pay for electricians that have
experience working in datacenters, because after all, power is power,
right?
So, he calls a bunch of people in the Yellow Pages and hires the
cheapest guy he c
On Jul 24, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
On 24-jul-2007, at 15:27, Prof. Robert Mathews (OSIA) wrote:
Looking at this issue with an 'interoperability lens,' I remain
puzzled by a personal observation that at least in the publicized
case of Duke University's Wi-Fi net bein
Anyone know of any changes that were made with TWTC (AS 4323)
last night that may have affected those running Foundry
routers? We peer with a number of providers and last night
our TWTC connection went down with:
Jul 25 15:57:22:N:BGP Peer 1.2.3.49 DOWN (Attribute Flags Error)
Jul 25 15:57:14:N
Leo Bicknell wrote:
I was complaining to some of the power designers during the building
of a major facility that the EPO button represented a single point
of failure, and effectively made all of the redundancy built into
the power system useless. After all, what's the point of having
two (or m
On Jul 25, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET wrote:
If they can be avoided, why do we put up with them? Do we really
want our colo in downtown San Francisco bad enough to take the risk
of having a single point of failure? How can we, as engineers, ask
questions about how many generators, h
John C. A. Bambenek wrote:
>
> Funny story about that and the EPO we have here...
> ...
Story #1
Many years ago, the safety department for my employer made a big stink
over the fact that the EPO hadn't been tested in a couple of years. We
scheduled an outage window, shut everything down. The fa
Leo Bicknell wrote:
I was complaining to some of the power designers during the building
of a major facility that the EPO button represented a single point
of failure, and effectively made all of the redundancy built into
the power system useless. After all, what's the point of having
two (or m
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 10:01:44AM -0400, Chad Oleary wrote:
> DHCPv6 doesn't even hand out addresses.
I wasn't going to say anything because Alain already said something.
But we've gotten this question from at least two other sources in the
last two days who read this and wanted to ask us what t
At 12:07 PM -0400 7/25/07, Leo Bicknell wrote:
>The more "urban" an area the more likely it is to have strict fire
>codes. Typically these codes require a single EPO for the entire
>structure, there's no way to compartmentalize to rooms or subsystems.
For high-availability sites (Tier III, Tier
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Leo Bicknell wrote:
What I found interesting is that a single EPO is not a hard and
fast rule. They walked me through a twisty maze of the national
electric code, the national fire code, and local regulations.
Through that journey, they left me with a rather interesting tid
On 7/25/07, Leo Bicknell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The more "urban" an area the more likely it is to have strict fire
codes.
If they can be avoided, why do we put up with them? Do we really
want our colo in downtown San Francisco bad enough to take the risk
of having a single point of f
> If they can be avoided, why do we put up with them? Do we really
> want our colo in downtown San Francisco bad enough to take the risk
> of having a single point of failure? How can we, as engineers, ask
> questions about how many generators, how much fuel, and yet take
> for granted that ther
Funny story about that and the EPO we have here...
We have chilled water cooling in our server rooms. A couple of years
ago we told the facilities guys there was sand in the lines. They
didn't believe us. This went back and forth for a few months until
the lines finally ground to a halt. The
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 04:20:25PM +0100, Carlos Friacas wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET wrote:
>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>ASNV6, no clue... but 32-bit ASN are already prepared, at least in
> >>the registry world.
> >>
> > It was just a joke, since the AS is getting high up there
At 10:04 AM -0500 7/25/07, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>
>The 73 "Xtra Large" LIRs that consume 79% of ARIN's v4 space today are paying
>no more than USD 0.03 per IP per year. That's not quite zero, but it's close
>enough the effect is the same. Until the cost of v4 space to these folks is
>more th
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Carlos Friacas wrote:
We'll probably run out of v4 addresses sooner than 2 byte ASN,
No.
however, globally it seems more pieces of the puzzle are in place for
the latter "revolution".
Depends on what you define as "in place" but I would disagree that
world is ready t
Hi Carlos,
We'll probably run out of v4 addresses sooner than 2 byte ASN, however,
globally it seems more pieces of the puzzle are in place for the latter
"revolution".
What percentage of your core routers can be configured with a four-octet ASN? :)
Cheers,
Rob
I was complaining to some of the power designers during the building
of a major facility that the EPO button represented a single point
of failure, and effectively made all of the redundancy built into
the power system useless. After all, what's the point of having
two (or more) of anything, if t
Thus spake "Adrian Chadd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm not sure what your definition of "really tiny" is, but out here
IPs are a dollar or two each a year from APNIC. I'm sure ARIN's IP
charges aren't $0.00.
The 73 "Xtra Large" LIRs that consume 79% of ARIN's v4 space today are
paying no more than
Mattias Ahnberg wrote:
Peter Dambier wrote:
The problem is, you dont know what is behind that probably NATted ip
address. Probably you have 3 unix machines running smtp and uucp
and a single infected windows box and maybe some VoIPs and ...
This is why I spoke of merely intercepting web tra
Hi Stephen,
I have run many times in the kind of problems that you describe, and always
was able to find a suitable alternative solution, at least a temporary one
(for instance until specific hardware can be upgrades, such as L3 switches,
and the solution was working fine at least for initial "sm
Don't know about freeipdb, but we use IPPlan:
http://iptrack.sourceforge.net/
-Scott
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Brian Raaen
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:13 AM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Where did freeipdb IP u
Jason J. W. Williams wrote:
I believe this happened to an Internap facility in Seattle a couple of
years ago: http://community.livejournal.com/lj_dev/670215.html
I was told it happened in our colo facility about a month before we
moved in. Some unfortunate remodeling of previous data center spa
On 25 Jul 2007, at 14:15, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
[...]
Well, you already say you have major ISPs submitting requests every
6 months, and I guess that is your high water mark so everyone else
should be longer (at lease here under RIPE you are supposed to be
allocated space for 2 yrs at a ti
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Frank Bulk wrote:
If you look at Kevin's example traces on the EDUCAUSE WIRELESS-LAN listserv
you'll see that the ARP packets are in fact unicast.
Iljitsch's point about the fact that iPhones remain on while crossing
wireless switch boundaries is exactly dead on. If you r
Dear Brian,
I was trying to investigate some the ip management tools and followed the link
www.freeipdb.org and was more than a little upset with what I found. This
domain name apparently has been taken by a porn site that is wanting to
auction it off. does anyone know if the project died or
John,
On Jul 25, 2007, at 2:13 PM, John Curran wrote:
I believe that we'll see extensive use of NAT for client-only
services (just look at many broadband residential services
today), but that won't help business customers who want
a block for the DMZ servers.
Well yes. However there are like
At 1:15 PM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
>I'm not sure there is time for v6 to be ready before companies find different
>ways to manage this. There are many things that need to happen to enable v6
>and I dont think any of them are happening in a big way.
Let's agree on "18mo-4yrs of 'gr
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 09:57:09PM -0500, Brandon Galbraith wrote:
> It appears that 365 is using the Hytec Continuous Power System [
> http://hitec.pageprocessor.nl/p3.php?RubriekID=2016], which is a motor,
> generator, flywheel, clutch, and Diesel engine all on the same shaft. They
> don't use b
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 08:18:30AM -0400, John Curran wrote:
> At 1:15 PM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
> >
> >> At present, there's a few years for these folks to switch to IPv6 for
> >> their growth. It requires cooperation from the Internet, in that we
> >> all need to recognize that th
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:21:04PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > > Lack of IPv4 addresses will put the brakes on growth of the
> > Internet
> > > which will have a major impact on revenue growth. Before long stock
> > > market analysts are going to be asking tough questions, and
> > C
At 1:15 PM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
>
>> At present, there's a few years for these folks to switch to IPv6 for
>> their growth. It requires cooperation from the Internet, in that we
>> all need to recognize that there will be IPv6 customers out there soon,
>> and even if you don't pla
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:50:05AM -0400, John Curran wrote:
> At 12:30 PM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
> >Hi John,
> > I fully agree on that.. but I am disagreeing as to the timescales.
> >
> >There is some opinion that when IANA hands out the last of its IP blocks
> >things will change
At 2:02 PM +0200 7/25/07, David Conrad wrote:
>This assumes consumption patterns remain the same which is, I believe, naive.
>In a world where you have to pay non-trivial amounts for address space
>utilization, people will only use the address space they actually need and
>you'll see even more
I was trying to investigate some the ip management tools and followed the link
www.freeipdb.org and was more than a little upset with what I found. This
domain name apparently has been taken by a porn site that is wanting to
auction it off. does anyone know if the project died or if it change
John,
On Jul 25, 2007, at 1:14 PM, John Curran wrote:
All the existing big businesses can operate with what they already
have, Google and Yahoo are not going to face any sort of crisis
for the foreseeable future. And as I've been saying for a while
and Randy put in his presentation, supply
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:52:19PM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2007, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
>
> > > Lack of IPv4 addresses will put the brakes on growth of the Internet
> > > which will have a major impact on revenue growth. Before long stock
> > > market analysts are going to be
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
> Level 4 datacenters can, and will, fail. Nothing you can
> do including just doing 48V DC for everything are truly
> foolproof solutions.
Hard to find anyone who takes the -48vdc mantra to heart more
than an RBOC. Ditto on lightni
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
> > Lack of IPv4 addresses will put the brakes on growth of the Internet
> > which will have a major impact on revenue growth. Before long stock
> > market analysts are going to be asking tough questions, and CEOs are
> > suddenly going to see the IPv6
At 12:30 PM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
>Hi John,
> I fully agree on that.. but I am disagreeing as to the timescales.
>
>There is some opinion that when IANA hands out the last of its IP blocks
>things will change overnight, and I dont see any reason for that to be the
>case. I think t
The buffers are overloading and dropping traffic. With a Cisco TAC case, the
tech had me increase the buffers so much it wasn't even funny. The only
problem was about and hour after we tried to tune the buffers, things got
very bad and I had clear them to default to stop a very ugly bigger ou
This router has a G-1 engine with 512 DRAM. I would stop using IRB, but it
appears that the way that motorola has implemented pvc's is very difficult to
work around. The Molorola middleware is dynamically assigning the pvc.
Yes... I have personly seen a CPE device change their vci after a pe
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:14:49AM -0400, John Curran wrote:
> At 11:52 AM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
> >On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 09:34:01PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> > However, what I'm trying to understand is why the motivation
> >> > to rapidly go from v4 to v6 only? Wh
Peter Dambier wrote:
The problem is, you dont know what is behind that probably NATted ip
address. Probably you have 3 unix machines running smtp and uucp
and a single infected windows box and maybe some VoIPs and ...
This is why I spoke of merely intercepting web traffic to inform,
to not int
> > Lack of IPv4 addresses will put the brakes on growth of the
> Internet
> > which will have a major impact on revenue growth. Before long stock
> > market analysts are going to be asking tough questions, and
> CEOs are
> > suddenly going to see the IPv6 light.
>
> What exactly will cease
At 11:52 AM +0100 7/25/07, Stephen Wilcox wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 09:34:01PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> > However, what I'm trying to understand is why the motivation
>> > to rapidly go from v4 to v6 only? What are the factors I'm
>> > missing in operating v4/v6 combined for som
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 11:57:37PM +, Paul Vixie wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seth Mattinen) writes:
>
> > I have a question: does anyone seriously accept "oh, power trouble" as a
> > reason your servers went offline? Where's the generators? UPS? Testing
> > said combination of UPS and ge
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 09:34:01PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > However, what I'm trying to understand is why the motivation
> > to rapidly go from v4 to v6 only? What are the factors I'm
> > missing in operating v4/v6 combined for some time?
>
> Growth.
>
> Lack of IPv4 addresses wi
> And the stories that the power guy I'm working with tells
> about foreign facilities, particularly in middle east war
> zones, are really scary...
> We fundamentally do not have the facilities problem
> completely nailed down to the point that things will never
> drop. Level 4
> datacente
From: "Justin M. Streiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: San Francisco Power Outage
Nothing quite like the sound of a whole machine
room spinning down at the same time. It gives you that lovely "oh shit"
feeling in the pit of your stomach.<<
Yep.
I
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET wrote:
www.1800gotjunk.com. They're all over Canada and the US (at the very
least). It's a very successful franchise operation.
I don't know why they need an AS, but I can say they did a bang-up
job of hauling the detritus out of a condo I used to ow
You posit that running out of bread (ipv4 address space) encourages
people to bake more bread.
Unfortunately it often makes them scream for bread lines (rationing,
central control, privilege.)
It'd be nice if there were a more positive reason to go ipv6 than
getting out of the bread lines, but
I believe this happened to an Internap facility in Seattle a couple of
years ago: http://community.livejournal.com/lj_dev/670215.html
I was told it happened in our colo facility about a month before we
moved in. Some unfortunate remodeling of previous data center space had
left an EPO switch in a
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