On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, David Schwartz wrote:
> generated by a worm. The ISP had an obligation to stop this traffic with
> filters or customer disconnection. They may or may not have complied with
> their obligation. Either way, it's hard to see why the customer should pay
> for traffic the ISP did n
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sean Donelan) writes:
> ...
>
> Why do so many people ignore their ISP when told about problems with
> their computer? My computer can't be infected, I have a firewall.
in any other industry, you (the isp) would do a simple risk analysis
and start treating the cause rather t
> alas. on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0405/msg00057.html
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Paul Vixie wrote:
> in any other industry, you (the isp) would do a simple risk analysis
> and start treating the cause rather than the symptom.
What other industry do you know where you are expected to fix products
you didn't sell and didn't cause for free? Should we revoke
Sean Donelan wrote:
and you would certainly not offer your services without a clear idea of how
to reach the customer and assist them in getting out of cyberjail --
Done. Effectiveness?
If you do this and keep them there until they are fixed, your network
should qualify as a good neighbor
> Been there, done that. Got any new ideas?
Provide a safe network connection. I believe an ISP should provide a safe
environment to play, assuming the customer is innocent granny. Your
average DSL network connection should be safe by default, so a default
Win98 (or any other OS) can be conne
On Saturday 12 June 2004 14:53, Adi Linden wrote:
> > Been there, done that. Got any new ideas?
>
> Provide a safe network connection. I believe an ISP should provide a safe
> environment to play, assuming the customer is innocent granny. Your
> average DSL network connection should be safe by de
- Original Message -
From: "Adi Linden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Provide a safe network connection. I believe an ISP should provide a safe
> environment to play, assuming the customer is innocent granny. Your
> average DSL network connection should be safe by default, so a default
> Win98 (
Maybe I'm a little slow on the draw, but I've just now realized
that we've come full circle, in a strange sort of way.
8 to 10 years ago the discussions were dominated by Karl D(1),
where *everything* was defined as to whether is was "actionable" or not.
Now the discussions are dominated by many
> The problem with this is one of who pays for it.
The customer.
> You are talking about an environment where the newcomers and non-experts
> require significantly more intervention in how things are done and what they
> can do than the more experienced hands.
I am talking about an environmen
> That's like saying provide safe electricity. If someone has a toaster where
> the wire cracks and they electrocute themselves, or a hair dryer that isn't
> safe in the bathtub, do you complain that the electric company should
> provide safe electricity?
The problem with all the comparisions is
Adi Linden wrote:
To compare this with the electricity company, the average home with a
200A
service is equivalent to NATed and firewalled internet bandwidth. As your
electricity demands grow (for whatever reason) the electricity company
upgrades your service, to 3 phase, 600V, whatever. Same w
> If we would properly follow the analogy above, ISPs should provide a
> "security fuse" which would disconnect the user when blown. Paul called
> this "cyberjail" if I follow his thoughts. All efforts above this should
> be charged separately or be part of "better general level of service".
>
To compare this with the electricity company, the average home with a 200A
service is equivalent to NATed and firewalled internet bandwidth. As your
electricity demands grow (for whatever reason) the electricity company
upgrades your service, to 3 phase, 600V, whatever. Same with internet
bandwidt
> The better analogy is what happens when you leave your oven on for 8 days
> straight? Assuming your house doesn't burn down, should you have to pay the
> electric bill for those 8 days? Hell yeah. It's impossible to separate what
> was "legit" energy use and what was from the oven, and it's n
--On Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:17 PM -0500 Adi Linden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
That's like saying provide safe electricity. If someone has a toaster
where the wire cracks and they electrocute themselves, or a hair dryer
that isn't safe in the bathtub, do you complain that the electric
company
On Sun, Jun 13, 2004, Adi Linden wrote:
> The reason this isn't economical today is because ISP lack any
> responsiblity. It is cheaper for an ISP to buy more bandwidth and pass the
> worms and viruses customers PCs spew to the internet than it is to deal
> with the problem. Seriously, if I se
> Sorry, that doesn't hold up entirely. My ADSL connections to my ISP are
> being used to route IP addresses that belong to me. It's a home DSL
> service coming into my house, but, I have my own portable address space
> and enough clue to manage my own systems, firewall(s), etc. Why should
> > The reason this isn't economical today is because ISP lack any
> > responsiblity. It is cheaper for an ISP to buy more bandwidth and pass the
> > worms and viruses customers PCs spew to the internet than it is to deal
> > with the problem. Seriously, if I send an ISP reasonable proof that a
And that is a problem. Unlike your electricity, where the supplier has an
obligation to provide a certain level of clean energy, there is nothing
like it with internet bandwidth. All the crud and exploits are dutyfully
forwarded to the customer.
Clean internet service is internet service that deliv
:
: My arguments are in respect to broadband connections to homes and offices
: without IT department, firewalls or cluefulness. If you own your own IP
: space you'd be considered an ISP, buying transit rather than broadband
: home DSL. What the physical wire looks like the service is delivered on
> > My arguments are in respect to broadband connections to homes and offices
> > without IT department, firewalls or cluefulness. If you own your own IP
> > space you'd be considered an ISP, buying transit rather than broadband
> > home DSL. What the physical wire looks like the service is delive
> > And that is a problem. Unlike your electricity, where the supplier has an
> > obligation to provide a certain level of clean energy, there is nothing
> > like it with internet bandwidth. All the crud and exploits are dutyfully
> > forwarded to the customer.
> >
> Clean internet service is inte
> 8 to 10 years ago the discussions were dominated by Karl D(1),
> where *everything* was defined as to whether is was "actionable" or not.
Googling for "Karl Denninger" and "actionable" only gets 30 hits
but, oh the nostalgia of it all...
Check out http://www.denninger.net to see that he is sti
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Mon 14 Jun 2004, 12:20 CEST]:
> Check out http://www.denninger.net to see that he is still
> alive and kicking and protesting one thing or another.
Would you buy an anti-spam solution from a man that requires the
inclusion of certain keywords in the subjec
Wow he has changed and toned down a lot from those
days
-Henry
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > 8 to 10 years ago the discussions were dominated
> by Karl D(1),
> > where *everything* was defined as to whether is
> was "actionable" or not.
>
> Googling for "Karl Denninger" and "actionable" o
- Original Message -
From: "Adi Linden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Clean internet is more than just valid IP datagrams to my IP address. If I
> connect to my ISP and do nothing beyond that, not a single packet, I
> expect to not receive any packets either. If I initiate a GET request to a
> w
- Original Message -
From: "Adi Linden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> if I send an ISP reasonable proof that a
> broadband customer hits my mailserver with thousands of emails an hour I
> should be able to expect an immediate response. Not hours, days or weeks,
> minutes and the originating acco
A response doesn't mean the ISP doesn't also investigate. Reasonable proof
is reasonable proof. The logs are a good start, but, the ISP should review
his own logs, and, check the currently active traffic patterns too. If
there
isn't any evidence, the ISP shouldn't shut the customer down. If th
we americans do not readily accept responsibility for our
[in]actions. we sue for being hit by a baseball while
attending a game. we sue for spilling hot coffee on
ourselves. we sue when we walki into open trenches and
manholes. and we self-righteously torture, commit war
crimes, and murder, a
> If your child borrows your credit card, and makes lots of unathorized
> charges, you may not have to pay more than $50; but the bank can go after
> your son or daughter for the money. Most parents end up paying, even if
> they didn't authorize their children to use the credit card.
So the cred
Scalable bandwidth is not new and is charged for, what
is the issue about that?
If the network is compromised and it is on the client
end, that is what business insurance is for, so that
everyone gets their's (payments, otherwise other types
of arrangements need to be made, according to the
doctr
attending a game. we sue for spilling hot coffee on
ourselves.
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm
Interesting reading on that whole "woman sues for spilling hot coffee on
herself" story. Sometimes there's a LOT more to the tale. :)
> http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm
while i am no fan of macdonalds, and a good case is made for
their negligence, perhaps you should follow the advice at the
bottom of that web page
The most important message this case has for you, the
consumer, is to be aware of the potential danger pos
Randy Bush wrote:
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm
while i am no fan of macdonalds, and a good case is made for
their negligence, perhaps you should follow the advice at the
bottom of that web page
The most important message this case has for you, the
consumer, is to be aware of the potent
- Original Message -
From: "Randy Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jonathan Nichols" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Points on your Internet driver's license (was RE: Even you can be h
> Or, go see the movie "Super Size Me" - you might just give up McDonald's
> entirely, reducing your risk of burns from their overheated coffee. :)
Haven't been in one on over 2 years - and not through any great principal, I
just stopped. Odd how our tastes change with age ;-)
Peter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Adrian Chadd) writes:
> ... I WANT my ISP to require more than just some third party saying
> "holy crap, someone's spitting out crap at me. Suspend!". Obviously you've
> not been handed Norton Personal firewall logs which CONCLUSIVELY PROVE,
> as far as the user is concerned,
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