I just had to respond to this thread and throw my 2 cents in. I can certainly
see the frustration of hiring managers (having done so myself) that receive a
load of resumes full of certified individuals who don't know squat. That
is what a tech interview is for, though isn't it?
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote:
But it would
be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters
means I don't know what I am talking about. That's stereotyping, isn't it?
Don (take it as a good-spirited needling, please) I'd like to point out
that this
Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend.
On Thursday 13 November 2003 05:07 pm, Vadim Antonov wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote:
But it would
be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those
letters means I don't know what I am
I created a test of my own that I typically give to candidates. This has
proved very helpful in determining if the prospective hire has strengths in
the areas I need. Everytime I have skipped using the test I get burned.
That being said I am still looking for attitude and work ethic as being a
I know, that e-bay used test to select a candidates, as well...
- Original Message -
From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: This may be stupid but
I created a test of my own that I
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote:
Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend.
Oh, you _do_ have weekends :)
--vadim
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that
help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I
has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute
to me.
Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)?
PS: this
Doug,
Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response
from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as
part of the interview process.
Neal
Doug Luce wrote:
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications
associated with handing out your public SSH key.
Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment
was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't
have it available to go through.
Well, FORK YOU AND THE PACKET YOU WERE ENCAPSULATED IN!
This is just priceless ... I am going to send the guy a note and
find out where he is working these days :-)
Doug Luce wrote:
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications
associated with handing out your
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's the same reason that I like to ask candidates to tell a story
about some past event and how they, personally, dealt with it. If a
candidate has had real personal experience of something then they will
be able to tell me a story filled with detail. On the other
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Peter Galbavy wrote:
Also an excellent way of checking if your candidate cares about past
employers confidentiality. That is if you want to see someone bad-mouth a
previous company.
oh no, i like some gossip.. wheres the fun of an ex-nameyourisp employee not
telling you
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use
Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top
do much weeding.
These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good
guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote:
of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply
trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a
school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his
night job skills, managing an auto body shop,
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If
you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to
carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your
application.
To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to
[EMAIL
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:16:46 -0500
From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
Tangential matter is the lifeblood of all mailing lists.
[...]
My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
network is needed to effectively troubleshoot problems. It did lead
to one awkward situation with a 16 year-old who immediately started
talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back
ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the
talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back
ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the
If that would be the criteria, wouldn´t the acceptable answer involve
UDP packets and
ICMP time exceeded? (not counting windows way of doing traceroute)
experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an
SSH public key if they don't already have one?
And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII
If they simply export their Word doc, it gets deleted as the formatting is
terrible. A good geek/sysadmin understands
: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:50 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: This may be stupid but..
experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH
public key if they don't already have one?
And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: This may be stupid but..
snip
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key
questions
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people
that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG.
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:36:50AM -0500, joshua sahala wrote:
Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A willingness, nay - a NEED, to learn and be open to new concepts is
what
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote:
Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively
avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them
like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity.
Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Vadim Antonov [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
Ironic, isn't it?
--
srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9
manager, outblaze.com
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people
that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG.
procmail is your friend
# --
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# prevent dupes
#
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| formail -D 65536 msgid.cache
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Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to?
To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs.
It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and
probably 20 posts in the past year.
There was an administrative post in February that stated the
list was
AM
To: joshua sahala
Cc: Peter Galbavy; Richard Irving; Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland
Maine; Vadim Antonov; John Brown (CV); Nanog List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote:
Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Acronyms
Thus spake 'Timothy R. McKee' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I agree certifications are overated at best.
Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything.
Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo.
Unfortunately, most recruiters and even hiring managers have no
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that
help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I
has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute
to me.
Which
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
I agree certifications are overated at best.
Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything.
Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo.
I once read the following and saved it away...
On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
I agree certifications are overated at best.
Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything.
Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that
help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I
has
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 02:50:47PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)?
What kind, African, or European? (Woe unto the interviewer who doesn't know. ;)
Exactly what I had in mind... :-)
Unfortunately, those kind of interviews
: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote:
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote:
I agree certifications are overated at best.
Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything.
Showing the ability to get things
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Matt Levine wrote:
So what you're saying is you want cisco to certify people's integrity?
:)
Bether them than Belkin.
--
Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323 WB6RDV
NetLojix
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/10/03 12:50:47 PM
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions
that
help me quickly get to the truth. For
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that
help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I
has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute
to me.
Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to
Of Wesley Vaux
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:24 PM
To: Matt Levine
Cc: Nanog List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
I once was in a class sitting beside a CCIE that asked me
what the command syntax was. I have no faith in the certified.
--
If this message was not signed
Now, the problem of finding a good recruiter is substituted for the
problem of finding a good engineer :) The trade-off is good only if
you're planning to hire dozens of engineers, considering monetary costs of
such arrangement. Even better, if you're creating a large org, get a
headhunter on
weeding out the nutjobs and BS artists leaves a pretty
small pool.
Simon
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Owen DeLong
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
As someone who
) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using
) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using
) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using
) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using
) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM
Subject: This may be stupid but..
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using
Alexei Roudnev wrote:
Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding
_highly skilled_ engineers.
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to?
Pete
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to?
To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs.
It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and
probably 20 posts in the past year.
There was an administrative post in February that stated the
list was moving
Vadim Antonov wrote:
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're
recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable
things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume.
And Statistics show, the less knowledgeable you are in this
field, the
recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining
with CC, and/or MS.
this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those
notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs.
two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable.
Okay, I was kinda waiting a single alternative opinion of recruiters, but
since I haven't seen one, I will offer one. True, most recruiters, like
the middle part of any bell curve, tend to be...average. And as usual,
with sweeping generalizations, you could be missing out on something. In
fact,
by coincidence, trying to stay ahead of my three tropical cyclones (two of
whom are autistic, the why in why i'm a stay-at-home parent), in a bundle
of health/school/welfare papers to parse, my rejection from good old time
warner cable of maine (hq'd about 15 minutes from my door) fell out and on
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance.
I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without
the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up
extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future
so negotiate with the recruiter.
benifits of a recuriter are:
* they take the twit calls
* they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out
* they do the screening
* they do the reference and background checks
* they have more resources to find people than you do
this saves you time and money
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're
recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable
things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume.
Recruiters are only good for initial screening and attracting applicants,
and in this
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