re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Don Mills
I just had to respond to this thread and throw my 2 cents in. I can certainly see the frustration of hiring managers (having done so myself) that receive a load of resumes full of certified individuals who don't know squat. That is what a tech interview is for, though isn't it?

re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Vadim Antonov
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: But it would be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters means I don't know what I am talking about. That's stereotyping, isn't it? Don (take it as a good-spirited needling, please) I'd like to point out that this

Re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Don Mills
Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend. On Thursday 13 November 2003 05:07 pm, Vadim Antonov wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: But it would be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters means I don't know what I am

Re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Fisher, Shawn
I created a test of my own that I typically give to candidates. This has proved very helpful in determining if the prospective hire has strengths in the areas I need. Everytime I have skipped using the test I get burned. That being said I am still looking for attitude and work ethic as being a

Re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Alexei Roudnev
I know, that e-bay used test to select a candidates, as well... - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:02 PM Subject: Re: This may be stupid but I created a test of my own that I

Re: This may be stupid but

2003-11-13 Thread Vadim Antonov
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend. Oh, you _do_ have weekends :) --vadim

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-11 Thread Michael . Dillon
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? PS: this

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-11 Thread neal rauhauser
Doug, Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process. Neal Doug Luce wrote: I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also

Re: This may be stupid but.

2003-11-11 Thread Doug Luce
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your public SSH key. Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't have it available to go through.

Re: This may be stupid but.

2003-11-11 Thread neal rauhauser
Well, FORK YOU AND THE PACKET YOU WERE ENCAPSULATED IN! This is just priceless ... I am going to send the guy a note and find out where he is working these days :-) Doug Luce wrote: This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-11 Thread Peter Galbavy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the same reason that I like to ask candidates to tell a story about some past event and how they, personally, dealt with it. If a candidate has had real personal experience of something then they will be able to tell me a story filled with detail. On the other

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-11 Thread Stephen J. Wilcox
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Peter Galbavy wrote: Also an excellent way of checking if your candidate cares about past employers confidentiality. That is if you want to see someone bad-mouth a previous company. oh no, i like some gossip.. wheres the fun of an ex-nameyourisp employee not telling you

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Doug Luce
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Peter Galbavy
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote: of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop,

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Michael . Dillon
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Per Gregers Bilse
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:16:46 -0500 From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. Tangential matter is the lifeblood of all mailing lists. [...] My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers?

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Petri Helenius
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network is needed to effectively troubleshoot problems. It did lead to one awkward situation with a 16 year-old who immediately started talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Michael . Dillon
talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the If that would be the criteria, wouldn´t the acceptable answer involve UDP packets and ICMP time exceeded? (not counting windows way of doing traceroute)

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread mike harrison
experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH public key if they don't already have one? And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII If they simply export their Word doc, it gets deleted as the formatting is terrible. A good geek/sysadmin understands

RE: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Wesley Vaux
: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: This may be stupid but.. experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH public key if they don't already have one? And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII

RE: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Wayne Gustavus (nanog)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: This may be stupid but.. snip When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions

stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread John Brown (CV)
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG. On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:36:50AM -0500, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A willingness, nay - a NEED, to learn and be open to new concepts is what

Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Timothy R. McKee
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity.

Re: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian
Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [EMAIL PROTECTED], Vadim Antonov [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] Ironic, isn't it? -- srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9 manager, outblaze.com

Re: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Randy Bush
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG. procmail is your friend # -- # # prevent dupes # :0 Wh: msgid.lock | formail -D 65536 msgid.cache # #

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Timothy Brown
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs. It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year. There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was

RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Fisher, Shawn
AM To: joshua sahala Cc: Peter Galbavy; Richard Irving; Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine; Vadim Antonov; John Brown (CV); Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Acronyms

Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Stephen Sprunk
Thus spake 'Timothy R. McKee' [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. Unfortunately, most recruiters and even hiring managers have no

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Daniel Roesen
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which

Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Daniel Roesen
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. I once read the following and saved it away...

Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Matt Levine
On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo.

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Valdis . Kletnieks
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Daniel Roesen
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 02:50:47PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? What kind, African, or European? (Woe unto the interviewer who doesn't know. ;) Exactly what I had in mind... :-) Unfortunately, those kind of interviews

RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Wesley Vaux
: This may be stupid but.. ] On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things

Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Jay Hennigan
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Matt Levine wrote: So what you're saying is you want cisco to certify people's integrity? :) Bether them than Belkin. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - [EMAIL PROTECTED] WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323 WB6RDV NetLojix

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread John Neiberger
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/10/03 12:50:47 PM On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For

RE: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Deepak Jain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to

RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Owen DeLong
Of Wesley Vaux Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:24 PM To: Matt Levine Cc: Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] I once was in a class sitting beside a CCIE that asked me what the command syntax was. I have no faith in the certified. -- If this message was not signed

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-10 Thread Vadim Antonov
Now, the problem of finding a good recruiter is substituted for the problem of finding a good engineer :) The trade-off is good only if you're planning to hire dozens of engineers, considering monetary costs of such arrangement. Even better, if you're creating a large org, get a headhunter on

RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]

2003-11-10 Thread Simon Hamilton-Wilkes
weeding out the nutjobs and BS artists leaves a pretty small pool. Simon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] As someone who

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Alexei Roudnev
) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Alexei Roudnev
) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Alexei Roudnev
) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Alexei Roudnev
) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Alexei Roudnev
) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Petri Helenius
Alexei Roudnev wrote: Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? Pete

RE: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread John Ferriby
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs. It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year. There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was moving

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Richard Irving
Vadim Antonov wrote: The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume. And Statistics show, the less knowledgeable you are in this field, the

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine
recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining with CC, and/or MS. this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs. two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable.

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Andy Walden
Okay, I was kinda waiting a single alternative opinion of recruiters, but since I haven't seen one, I will offer one. True, most recruiters, like the middle part of any bell curve, tend to be...average. And as usual, with sweeping generalizations, you could be missing out on something. In fact,

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-09 Thread Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine
by coincidence, trying to stay ahead of my three tropical cyclones (two of whom are autistic, the why in why i'm a stay-at-home parent), in a bundle of health/school/welfare papers to parse, my rejection from good old time warner cable of maine (hq'd about 15 minutes from my door) fell out and on

This may be stupid but..

2003-11-08 Thread Fisher, Shawn
If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-08 Thread John Brown (CV)
so negotiate with the recruiter. benifits of a recuriter are: * they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do this saves you time and money

Re: This may be stupid but..

2003-11-08 Thread Vadim Antonov
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume. Recruiters are only good for initial screening and attracting applicants, and in this