RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

Thomas [mailto:m...@mtcc.com] > Sent: Friday, 6 September, 2013 13:25 > To: Eugen Leitl > Cc: nanog@nanog.org > Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to > take it back > > On 09/06/2013 12:14 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

I'm sorry if you don't share my view. Personally I think the Patriot Act is unconsitutional and CALEA is a tool to enable the total invasion of privacy. I think the laws need changed, I want to change. That said I will not break them and neither will you. How would/does your company respond to

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

The problem is that the US govt and others have been sucked into a vortex of bad game theory. They believe we the people don't want any terrorist acts against us, or minimized as much as possible, which is roughly: none. This belief is reasonable. Worse, terrorism has become a political weapon

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

This has been known for years so why the sudden list spam Calea in Canada goes into full force jan 1 2014 and yes it was meant to stop pedo bears but it is much farther reaching Sent from my iPhone On 2013-09-06, at 5:33 PM, "Scott Weeks" wrote: > > > --- s...@circlenet.us wrote: > From: S

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 23:03 +, Paul Donner (pdonner) wrote: > Great opportunity for a country like Brazil (for example) to become a > place of business for many of these services which are subject to > Calea (and such) in the US. This type of behavior is certainly a > motivator for folks in ot

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

uot; will reign. /wp From: Sam Moats<mailto:s...@circlenet.us> Sent: ‎9/‎6/‎2013 11:55 AM To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back The problem being is when you d

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Naslund, Steve wrote: > I am unclear on what you mean by technical choice. Are you talking about a > technical solution to keep the government from seeing your traffic? That > will not work for two main reasons. [good reasons snipped] Ah, I should have been mo

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

iams [mailto:ro...@techsolvency.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 9:56 AM To: NANOG Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back [snip] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsberg-limitations-knowledge I think that Schneier'

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 6 September 2013 10:52, Sam Moats wrote: > The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be secure > and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for long. > The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will force them into > compliance. Only if are

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote: That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new protocol. Uh, a first step might be to just turn on [START]TLS. We're not using the tools that have been implemented and depl

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 01:04:48PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > I'd say we already have those things too in the form of PGP/SMIME. > Who knows what the NSA can break, but it's just not right to say that > we need new protocols. The means has been there for many years to > secure email (fsvo 'sec

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

--- s...@circlenet.us wrote: From: Sam Moats There only options are to: Disobey the law, unacceptable in my opinion Close down services, noble but I need to eat and you probably want to keep getting email Compromise your principles and obey the law, the path often choosen. -

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 9/6/2013 8:08 AM, John Peach wrote: On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 07:46:59 -0500 Jorge Amodio wrote: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back Who is we ? If you bothere

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

"Just following orders..." From: Sam Moats To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 7:30 AM Subject: RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back +1 I couldn't have said it any better. Sam On 2

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

.org Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be secure and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for long. The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will for

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

MAN UP! From: Sam Moats To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 8:04 AM Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back This is part of the purpose behind the separation of powers between executive

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be secure and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for long. The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will force them into compliance. There only options are to: Disobey the law, unacceptable in my

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote: > >That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other > >services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new > >protocol. > > > > Uh, a first step might be to just tu

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

Once upon a time, Nicolai said: > Agreed. Although some people are uncomfortable with OpenSSL's track record, > and don't want to trade system security for better-than-plaintext > network security. OpenSSL is not the only game in town. -- Chris Adams

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 09/06/2013 12:52 PM, Nicolai wrote: On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote: That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new protocol. Uh, a first

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:23 AM, Sam Moats wrote: > ... > Below is a sample banner (IS is information System) > > By using this IS (which includes any device attached to this IS), you > consent to the following conditions: > > -The USG routinely intercepts and monitors communications on this IS fo

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote: > >That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other > >services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new > >protocol. > > > > Uh, a first step might be to just tu

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 09/06/2013 12:14 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote: That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new protocol. Uh, a f

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Sam Moats wrote: > The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be > secure and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive > for long. That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other services, and in

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Royce Williams wrote: > Daniel Ellsberg's attempt to explain this to Kissinger is insightful. It's a > pretty quick read, with many layers of important observations. (It's Mother > Jones, but this content is apolitical): > > > http://www.motherjones.com/kev

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

The biggest mistake everyone is making is that while we are talking about what the USGOV/NSA in this instance you assume this is the only entity behaving in this manner. Morpheus : "This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 02:27:32PM +, Naslund, Steve wrote: > If everyone cancelled their gmail accounts, stopped using Google search, > and stopped paying for Google placement and ads, their stock would go to > zero nearly overnight. Again, no one seems to care about the issue > enough to do

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Naslund, Steve wrote: [snip] > 1. We vote in a new executive branch every four years. They control and appoint the NSA director. Vote them out if you don't like how they run things. Do you think a President wants to maintain power? Of course they do and they

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

This is part of the purpose behind the separation of powers between executive, legislative and judicial. William Pitt wrote "Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" . As such constraints are needed and in place. We expect politician to cheat,lie,be stupid and self s

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote: > IMHO, there is no amount of engineering that can fix stupid people doing > stupid things on both sides of the stupid lines. Yes but there is engineering to ensure that they have the opportunity to do the right thing in the first place. If we

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

We have to do the right thing anyway because as engineers we are always motivated to innovate, to fix, to make things better. Motivation has not to come form the NSA or any other spooking service of the day. Even if we design and deploy the best engineering solution there is always a weak link that

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

I don't suggest a riot. I do believe in the rule of law, as a member of a democracy I need to accept that I will not always agree with the laws that are enacted. If we lived in China or somewhere else where there was no method to change laws that were unfair or unjust then yea I would support th

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

So when do we riot? I've been waiting for months now. On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote: > > > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > > > > > > > > > > > Who is we ? > > > > If you bothered to read the 1st paragraph you would know. > > > > I read

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

to do business with China. Steven Naslund Chicago IL -Original Message- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamo...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 8:51 AM To: NANOG Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > The US government has betrayed the I

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:24:26 -, Warren Bailey said: > Who's going to pay for the cleanup? The same people who are/were paid to > create the mess? Clearly many of the "tin foil hat" theories are now > becoming common place. I really don't know if there is any way out of this > stateside, it's le

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

e- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamo...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 8:51 AM To: NANOG Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > > > > > >

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

> > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > > > > > > > Who is we ? > > If you bothered to read the 1st paragraph you would know. > I read all of it, the original article and other references to it. IMHO, there is no amount of engineering that can fix stupid people

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 6 September 2013 11:37, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying > > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > Its like you have to abandon USA based encryptation systems that are closed sou

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

>The answer is >not much because I will not and can not break the law, it's unethical >and wrong. I invite you to consider the concept of civil disobedience--where the law is unethical or wrong it can be argued that it's also unethical and wrong to FOLLOW the law. I haven't yet been placed in a

RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

> From: Sam Moats [mailto:s...@circlenet.us] > > I give up trying to resist, I am now firmly in the tin foil hat club. And therein lies the problem.

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 07:46:59 -0500 Jorge Amodio wrote: > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying > > > > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > > > > Who is we ? If you bothered to read the 1st paragraph you wou

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying > > The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back > Who is we ? -J

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

> True I shot from the hip, he does address the concerns later. It happens. > I'm used > to implementing technologies to solve security problems. It's just damn > frustrating to have your hands tied in such a way that you can not and > that's the position that I see myself and most other netwo

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

True I shot from the hip, he does address the concerns later. I'm used to implementing technologies to solve security problems. It's just damn frustrating to have your hands tied in such a way that you can not and that's the position that I see myself and most other network ops in. Our custome

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

> On 2013-09-06 05:57, Roland Dobbins wrote: > > There are no purely technical solutions to social ills. Schneier of > > all people should know this. Schneier does know this, and explicitly said this. -jsq http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

On 9/6/2013 5:23 AM, Bryan Tong wrote: That and ignoring it will only continue to affect the code/silicon arena. Social problems are always affected by who throws the biggest fit. On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Randy Bush wrote: We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it T

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

Who's going to pay for the cleanup? The same people who are/were paid to create the mess? Clearly many of the "tin foil hat" theories are now becoming common place. I really don't know if there is any way out of this stateside, it's legislated. On 9/6/13 3:18 AM, "Randy Bush" wrote: >>> We engin

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

That and ignoring it will only continue to affect the code/silicon arena. Social problems are always affected by who throws the biggest fit. On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > >> We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it > > There are no purely technical solut

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

I believe you are correct, whatever technical hurdles we put in place will be overcome by policy. As long as you can legally require me to make my network intercept able for "lawful" purposes and are able to prevent me from explaining these purposes to my users any security that I would put in

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

>> We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it > There are no purely technical solutions to social ills. no. there are many issues in many arenas. but we are responsible for cleaning up our side of the street. randy

Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back

Eugen Leitl wrote: >We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it Nonsense. This is not a technical issue, it's a socio-political issue. It’s both naive & distracting to try & solve this set of problems with code and/or silicon, when it must in fact be addressed within the civi