You don't believe that capitalism has progressive aspects? I thought you were a
Marxist?
How can you hold both that capitalism has no progressive aspects and that you
are a Marxist at one and the same time? THere are numerous passages in Marx
filled with praises of capitalism's progressive featu
Actually Blake was referring to Roman Catholic Churches when he spoke of the
dark
"satanic mills", not industrial plants. However, the phrase is now so commonly
used
in the way you use it, that it really doesn't make much difference.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> At 02:33
Pierre Jalée, "The Pillage of the Third World," (Monthly Review), pp 76-83:
Nevertheless, there are many well-meaning people, both in the imperialist
countries and the Third World, who still have illusions as to the
usefulness of private investment in the underdeveloped countries.
It is simple t
Tom,
By "up" I meant an increase in growth rates.
Doug,
So, just out of curiosity, how does a comparison
between 1975-95 with post 1995 look both globally and
regionally, as I think you've got the numbers reasonably at
hand? I would guess that my forecasts about who is "up"
and who i
On Tue, February 9, 1999 at 07:34:51 (-0500) Gerald Levy writes:
>...
>What PEN-L suffers from is not the absence of posts. Quite the reverse. It
>is not uncommon for daily digests to be over 500K. I would guestimate that
>digests have average over 250K in recent months. This is _way_ too large
>f
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Max Sawicky wrote:
> Actually this pales next to the comprehensive discussion
> of Lesbian phalluses on Henwood's 'Libidinous-Business
> Observer' list.
That ain't the half of it. Wild whipping sessions, the crossing of
the intergalactic divide from Starcluster Spandex to Pl
Charles,
Aw, heck. The Indians should tell the Europeans to go
back where they came from. And I think that the Basques
should tell all of those blankety blank Aryans to go back
where they came from in Eurasia. And, the Iroquois should
tell the Algonkians to go back where they came from a
I always read the BLS reports even though I am a subscriber from Canada.. I
hope that
they are not removed from Pen-L. While it is true that at times Pen-L is high
volume, there is much that is of interest. As to the long posts not directly
related to economics, I have found
some of
them most intr
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09 4:46 PM >>>
Charles,
Well, we're wearing this thin. But, just to put it in
context: I brought up the violent transfer of land control
between tribes to contrast it with the peaceful transfer
that occurred, at least initially, in s
Wojtek:
>If memory serves, that is what A.V. Chayanov argues re. Eastern Europe in
>_The Theory of Peasanr Economy_ (Madison 1986).
>
>But there is a big difference betwenn the 18th century "satanic mills" and
>the 20th century maquilladoras. The later are certainly horrible if
>compared to, say,
At 02:33 PM 2/9/99 -0500, Lou wrote:
>The actual historical record is that peasants in what Michael calls
>"self-provisioning" economies resisted proletarianization with all the
>force they can muster. It was normal for peasants in the 17th century to
>have the skills and raw materials to fashion
Charles,
Well, we're wearing this thin. But, just to put it in
context: I brought up the violent transfer of land control
between tribes to contrast it with the peaceful transfer
that occurred, at least initially, in some places such as
the "purchase" (however non-meeting of the minds)
.. . .
> production. The fact (as I understand it) is that when the head Inca
> wasn't mobilizing tributary labor (with whips, Max, because I know that
> excites you) . . .
Actually this pales next to the comprehensive discussion
of Lesbian phalluses on Henwood's 'Libidinous-Business
Observer' l
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09 4:02 PM >>>
Charles,
I think you are still evading the issue here. It is
fine to argue that there was no conception of "private
property in land" and also that there was no juridically
defined "territory" because (at least in what
> Since Ricardo brings up "long waves" in connection
> with the discussion of Frank, let me simply note that these
> are Braudel "la duree" 300-400 year waves and not the lower
> level 40-50 year Kondratievs. . . .
Actually we're in the middle of a 4000-year
geological wave whose within-
Charles,
I think you are still evading the issue here. It is
fine to argue that there was no conception of "private
property in land" and also that there was no juridically
defined "territory" because (at least in what is now the
US) there were no "states." But, are all those books one
Doug,
And since 1995? Of course East Asia is down, but is
not most of the rest of the world up somewhat? Certainly
the US has been and Europe, both East and West (although
parts of the East are not up relative to the socialist
period), and, I think, Africa. Latin America maybe not.
Ba
Since Ricardo brings up "long waves" in connection
with the discussion of Frank, let me simply note that these
are Braudel "la duree" 300-400 year waves and not the lower
level 40-50 year Kondratievs. Braudel also labeled these
"geographical" cycles and they have demographic, even
Malth
here's the kind of hand-out I think up for my intro-econ class:
Econ. 120/Dr. J. Devine/Spring 1999
The Future of Social Security
The Social Security system is not paid for by people paying taxes now to
accumulate assets that people in the future spend when they get SS
benefits. It's a "pay as
--- Begin Forwarded Message ---
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:29:18 -0500
From: Stephanie Ann Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fwd: [PEN-L:3038] Wampum
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: POST-KEYNESIAN THOUGHT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John Henry is off PKT, so i sent him the
The A.G.Frank of Re-Orient is a great admirer of Smith, not Marx.
Except for a minor point, every reference to Marx is
highly negative, whereas those to Smith are always positive.
As will become evident later, this is a new Frank, a sinocentric
(anti-eurocentric) one; the old Frank of "underde
Yes, I agree that the "starting between communities" is part of his thesis. The gift
exchange may be within one community. Interesting. I'd have to look into the facts of
"wampum" more. I wonder what language that is.
I would be surprised if the land on Manhattan was part of the commodities of
Barkley Rosser wrote,
> And since 1995? Of course East Asia is down, but is
>not most of the rest of the world up somewhat? Certainly
>the US has been and Europe, both East and West (although
>parts of the East are not up relative to the socialist
>period), and, I think, Africa. Latin
>now, I'll agree with you that the 'more steel' versions of marxism are
>particularly horrid.but that does not mean that I'll agree with
>you that peasant forms of life are closer to what I would aspire to.
>my parents were peasants, and I think you idealise and exoticize way
>too much. they w
>
> I wrote: >> . . .
You wrote plenty of substantive, well, substance,
but one thing you said could be misinterpreted
by the superficial, reckless, or malevolent
reader (circle all which apply).
>
> Max "mbs" Sawicky asks: >Is the whip used to force laborers to produce
> exchange value differ
Rosser Jr, John Barkley wrote:
>Personally I prefer GDP growth rates, not profit rates.
>And, no, I am not going to get into a data slinging match
>with you. If you want to argue that GDP growth in the
>1990s is lower than in the 1970s or 1980s, fine. Be my
>guest.
I want to argue that bec
Doug:
>Well, yes. I never made any claims to the contrary. One of the reasons I
>started LBO was because I thought left journalism, whatever that means
>these days, was very deficient at reporting and analyzing big capital. Big
>capital owns and controls much of the world, and there's all too litt
Louis Proyect wrote:
>In all the years that
>I've been reading LBO-Talk, there has been very little coverage of the
>problems of the typical third world denizen, namely those who work the
>land.
Well, yes. I never made any claims to the contrary. One of the reasons I
started LBO was because I th
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09 1:22 PM >>>
Charles,
Well, I guess I'll add a bit more on this pre-European
intertribal conflicts issue. Again, of course, except for
places like the central valley of Mexico where there are
historical records, we only know about th
Doug,
Personally I prefer GDP growth rates, not profit rates.
And, no, I am not going to get into a data slinging match
with you. If you want to argue that GDP growth in the
1990s is lower than in the 1970s or 1980s, fine. Be my
guest.
Barkley Rosser
On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:57:32 -0500 Dou
Doug,
No. But this is an example of the "septic tank
effect" as Jim Devine put it. We only got the internet
after a certain level of development of computers (the PC)
and a certain level of saturation and spread of their use.
This allowed the emergence of a qualitatively different
res
>Louis,
> Ah, but then we have the human sacrifice practiced by
>the Aztecs. Next we shall hear about the "light rule" by
>the Germans at Auschwitz.
>Barkley Rosser
This is ahistorical. We are trying to identify the differences between
precapitalist Latin America and what took its place. W
>Why would anyone object to Dave Richardson's amazingly useful reports? I,
>for one, don't have time to read every major paper every day and find lots
>of interesting nuggets in the Daily Labor Reports. Please keep them
>coming, Dave!
>
> Ellen Frank
Oh please, Geri doesn'
Louis,
Ah, but then we have the human sacrifice practiced by
the Aztecs. Next we shall hear about the "light rule" by
the Germans at Auschwitz.
Barkley Rosser
On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:29:12 -0500 Louis Proyect
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Brad deLong wrote:
> >In general, the Aztecs
> >>an
Charles,
Well, I guess I'll add a bit more on this pre-European
intertribal conflicts issue. Again, of course, except for
places like the central valley of Mexico where there are
historical records, we only know about things that went on
either after or just before the Europeans arrived i
Brad writes: >Consider the comparison of Erich Honecker and Ferdinand
Marcos. Erich Honecker exploits the East German people, and manages to get
some nice dinners, a pretty big house, some servants, and... a deer park.
That's the most he gets out of them in the way of surplus value because he
take
Doug:
>Ok, so let's for now assume that's what The Debate is about. On your list,
>Mark Jones quoted me saying that women who go to work in Mexican
>maquiladoras find some degree of liberation from rural patriarchy in their
>new lives, along with the exploitation and toxic waste that goes with the
American Airlines is a major sponsor to and supporter of groups like:
GLADD, the Human Rights Campaign, the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund,
the AIDS Action Foundation, DIFFA, AmFAR, and scores of
community-based groups representing gays and lesbians. It is also the
first airline to adopt a written
Jim,
I always thought ( after Marx , Chapter 1, Vol. 1 of _Capital_) that technically money
only exists in commodity exchange ?
There is a large anthropological literature on primary cultural gift exchange,
reciprocity, etc. as different than commodity exchange ( no expectation of repayment,
>Gerald Levy wrote (of the Daily Labor Report):
>
>>seriously, Dave: stop it!
>
Why would anyone object to Dave Richardson's amazingly useful reports? I,
for one, don't have time to read every major paper every day and find lots
of interesting nuggets in the Daily Labor Reports. Please keep them
>yeah, Doug, why won't you just play along? Louis understands you,
>loves you like a brother...
>
>angela
Oh please, can we cut out the "Doug Henwood groupie" garbage. It's bad
enough that I had to put up with this on LBO-Talk without it creeping into
PEN-L. Doug is a big boy and has to take res
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09 11:34 AM >>>
At 10:48 AM 2/9/99 -0500, Charles Brown wrote:
>Overall, I just wish the Europeans had had more respect for the indigenous
societies, because I think our species would be better off with a wider
variety of cultures, and preservation of the knowledge an
>Is the whip used to force laborers to produce
>exchange value different from the one used to
>make them produce use-values?
>
>curious,
>mbs
No, it is the same whip. The question worth discussing, however, is the
impact of colonialism on Latin America. The Incan empire created use-values
that ha
Louis Proyect wrote:
>Doug, we have political differences that no amount of quoting in context or
>out of context will change.
You have an amazing skill at redefining what a debate is about when caught
with your pants down.
>You believe that capitalism has some
>progressive aspects, while I bel
Dear Pen-L,
There is a story in the Halliday&Resnick physics textbook that says, if
you applied compound interest to the 24 dollars or whatever the amount
was the American Indians sold Manhattan for to the Dutch---it would now
be worth the assessed value of New York City.
I'll dig this little ge
>>> Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/09 10:55>
Imperialism invests in an entirely
different manner in Africa than it does at home. In the colonies (now
neocolonies), it invests in roads, seaports, mining equipment, oil
refineries, fertilizers, tractors, etc. to the extent that is necessary
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> American Airlines is a major sponsor to and supporter of groups like:
> GLADD, the Human Rights Campaign, the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund,
> the AIDS Action Foundation, DIFFA, AmFAR, and scores of
> community-based groups representing gays and lesbia
> Louis P. wrote: >>In general, the Aztecs and Incas ruled with a relatively
> light hand<<
>
> Brad deL emoted: >!<
>
> I think Marx makes the point somewhere in vol. I of CAPITAL that overtly
> forced labor (which the Incas organized) combined with commodity
> production
> (which t
>I never said such a thing. I asked Jim to write a piece about the way
>American Indians live today. You've gone from caricaturing your opponents
>views to inventing them.
>
>Doug
What are you talking about? You told me this yourself. You also once asked
"how long we had to wait until the Indians
Jim Devine:
>I think Marx makes the point somewhere in vol. I of CAPITAL that overtly
>forced labor (which the Incas organized) combined with commodity production
>(which the Spaniards brought) represents the worst of both. Inca-type
>forced labor was limited in its disgustingness by the fact that
Louis Proyect wrote:
>No, I got his point exactly. When Jim Craven was going to write something
>for LBO, Doug told him that he wasn't interested in all that 1492 stuff.
I never said such a thing. I asked Jim to write a piece about the way
American Indians live today. You've gone from caricaturi
Doug:
>Seeing the world in black and white makes writing polemic a lot easier, but
>it's not very helpful. I was reacting to your preposterous claim that
>Nigeria has seen "plenty of investment," which is why the phrase was in
>quotes. Nigeria has not had "plenty of investment," it's had too littl
Louis Proyect wrote:
>Another example of this is the bonkers Living Marxism sect in Great
>Britain, which has argued that the problem in Africa is some kind of benign
>neglect. In the past, capitalists would roll up their sleeves and build
>railroads, hydroelectric dams and mines, etc. But in rec
At 10:48 AM 2/9/99 -0500, Charles Brown wrote:
>Overall, I just wish the Europeans had had more respect for the indigenous
societies, because I think our species would be better off with a wider
variety of cultures, and preservation of the knowledge and cultural
treasuries of the indigenous peopl
Wojtek:
>Lou, I think you missed his point. The issue at hand is not deconstructing
>some popular myths (e.g. European benevolence) but formulating political
>and economic claims.
No, I got his point exactly. When Jim Craven was going to write something
for LBO, Doug told him that he wasn't inte
In general, the Aztecs
>and Incas ruled with a relatively light hand
>
>Louis Proyect
!
ricardo:
My intuition is the tributary societies of the Americas, because they
were still closer to chiefdoms, were more
egalitarian (within) than those of China and India...I think if Frank
Date sent: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:37:26 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:[PEN-L:3035] Re: Re: Re: Ernest Mandel on long waves
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jim and Sam,
I think the
>I always thought ( after Marx , Chapter 1, Vol. 1 of _Capital_) that
technically money only exists in commodity exchange ?
>
>There is a large anthropological literature on primary cultural gift
exchange, reciprocity, etc. as different than commodity exchange ( no
expectation of repayment, symbo
Gerald Levy wrote (of the Daily Labor Report):
>seriously, Dave: stop it!
No, Dave, don't.
Doug
At 09:36 AM 2/9/99 -0500, Lou Proyect wrote:
>Doug, am I really supposed to answer this question? You have stated
>publicly that you never read anything more than 2 or 3 screens worth of
>text. I suspect that this is why many of the points I have made about these
>exact questions have not registe
Ricardo:
> This
>conflict between societies living at different stages of development
>is a much ignored but crucial one in history.
This really is one of the most important questions underlying the
differences between world-systems theorists like Frank and certain
"classical" Marxists. The Sec
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:11:20 -0800
From: Gar Lipow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Freedom Train
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:3047] Re: A World Economy 1400-1800?
Gar Lipow wrote:
So you are saying that Europe acc
>>> "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 02/08 6:28 PM >>>
Barkley:
Charles,We're getting close enough to a "meeting of the minds"
here that are transactions might be almost not void. Just
a couple of points.
___
Charles: Sounds good to me.
__
Barkley:
One is that i
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--_=_NextPart_000_01BE5442.B76A97C0
BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1999
__The nation's economy kept humming along in January, adding 245,000 new
job
>>
>> (For a blueprint of the model send $1 trillion and S.A.S.E)
valis wrote,
>
>Are you sure the controversy isn't corrupting you, Tom?
>I built an LW generator from an old 45 turntable and a roll
>of toilet paper. Works fine. Who's this Levy character
>that thinks non-economists have no p
Re:
>
>Is the whip used to force laborers to produce
>exchange value different from the one used to
>make them produce use-values?
>
>> . . .
>
>curious,
>mbs
well, Louis P. does have a point.
Consider the comparison of Erich Honecker and Ferdinand Marcos. Erich
Honecker exploits the East German
I agree completely. BLS provides micro data that are very useful to me.
Even reprints from the NY Times which I read in print everyday but sometimes miss
an article or two, and am glad to catch what I missed by seeing it on the list.
In the print media, there are many features in the newspapers t
I wrote: >> I think Marx makes the point somewhere in vol. I of CAPITAL
that overtly forced labor (which the Incas organized) combined with
commodity production (which the Spaniards brought) represents the worst of
both. Inca-type forced labor was limited in its disgustingness by the fact
that it
At 09:12 PM 2/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Louis Proyect wrote:
>
>>The European invasion of the Americas, Africa and Asia destroyed the old
>>tributory societies and replaced them with commodity producing plantations
>>and mines that were completely destructive.
>
>Undeniably true. What does this mean
I second this sentiment.
Michael
At 09:32 AM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I appreciate the BLS report and if it is discontinued from PEN-L, would like
>to arrange to receive it some other way. But it seems it should be easy
>enough to delete for anyone not interested. Also, it is usually not te
Today's New York Times has an article that would provide a good case
study for an intro micro class on the topic of price allocation. John
Pareles argues that the new low-power FM stations authorized by the FCC
should not be auctioned off to the highest bidder. He has a lot to say
about "genrefi
I appreciate the BLS report and if it is discontinued from PEN-L, would like
to arrange to receive it some other way. But it seems it should be easy
enough to delete for anyone not interested. Also, it is usually not terribly
long. Mat
Brad deLong wrote:
>In general, the Aztecs
>>and Incas ruled with a relatively light hand
>>
>>Louis Proyect
>
>
>!
Anthropologist John Murra's article in the Peru Reader titled "Cloth,
Textile, and the Inca Empire" sets down the exact nature of the tributary
glue that held this civil
How do define an economist? A Phd? What about non-economists, like me, who are
subbed to Pen-l to learn from the economists? Perhaps you can set some
guidelines for a typical post should include. Better yet, why don't you lead
by example?
Sam Pawlett
Gerald Levy wrote:
> Barkley writes -- implo
Gerry Levy:
>Moreover, too much of the content of posts has nothing to do of relevance
>for a "Progressive Economists Network". In fact, I would hazard to
>estimate that on this "economists" list, a majority of posts are written
>by non-economists.
>
>There's way too much spam.
This is obviously
I agree. I certainly find the BLS report more intersting than Jery's
posts. Steve
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Mathew Forstater wrote:
> I appreciate the BLS report and if it is discontinued from PEN-L, would like
> to arrange to receive it some other way. But it seems it should be easy
> enough to del
Louis P. wrote: >>In general, the Aztecs and Incas ruled with a relatively
light hand<<
Brad deL emoted: >!<
I think Marx makes the point somewhere in vol. I of CAPITAL that overtly
forced labor (which the Incas organized) combined with commodity production
(which the Spaniards broug
First of all, many, many people have told me that the Daily Report that Dave
posts is very valuable. Yes, it is confined to the U.S. I wish that we had
something comparable for Europe, Latin America, Africa and Asia.
Many people here are non-economists. My original vision for pen-l would have
> I've built a model
> of a long wave up cycle generator.
> Since nothing out there matches my model,
> we're not in an up cycle. Period.
>
> (For a blueprint of the model send $1 trillion and S.A.S.E)
Are you sure the controversy isn't corrupting you, Tom?
I built an LW generator from an old
Barkley writes -- imploring me to write more for PEN-L:
> We are waiting.
You will have to continue to wait.
What PEN-L suffers from is not the absence of posts. Quite the reverse. It
is not uncommon for daily digests to be over 500K. I would guestimate that
digests have average over 250K in r
> From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> What's your metric for long waves? Profit rates? In the U.S., 1982 was the
> bottom. But Japan has since fallen apart and Europe has long been in the
> mud. The 1990s? U.S. profit rates have flattened, Europe is still in the
> mud, as is Japan, a
81 matches
Mail list logo
