[PEN-L:6870] NATO does not target civilians.

1999-05-16 Thread Ken Hanly
This is true. Unfortunately it seems to be a logical truth not a matter of fact. Nothing could count as NATO targeting a civilian. For example, civilian employees of TV stations are part of the military apparatus and are thus not civilian targets. Chinese embassy employees are not targeted but

[PEN-L:6873] Re: Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Peter Dorman
I don't like to toot my own horn in public, but in this case maybe I should. I've been writing about socialism in a non-Marxian (and non-neoclassical) vein for almost 20 years (sporadically). My first piece was published in 1980 (a critique of Castoriadis' "On the Positive Content of

[PEN-L:6874] Re: Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Yahya Mete Madra
Just thought I'd clarify: I meant the issue has been dressed up as two 'opposites' neither of which we need necessarily embrace - but if we don't embrace 'em, our discourse isn't in the frame - the frame constituted for economic debate today is one of Hayekian freedom plus price as optimal

[PEN-L:6875] Fwd: FYI: Chengdu Students' Apology (fwd)

1999-05-16 Thread Stephen E Philion
Early this morning, students in ChengDu, a Southwest city of China, send an apology letter to President Clinton and the American people for the accident of burning down the US consulate in that city days ago: We, the students in ChengDu, hereby sincerely express our deep sorrow to the US

[PEN-L:6876] Re: Gregor Gysi letter to Slobodan Milosevic

1999-05-16 Thread Michael Hoover
Louis, that's an interesting article, but is there any evidence that Hoxha actively sought to subvert Yugoslavia by arming ethnic Albanian Kosovars, propagandizing them, etc.? And did Tito and his successors respond in any way? I'll tell you the truth. I've been digging through the

[PEN-L:6878] Yeltsin is a US President?

1999-05-16 Thread Gregory Schwartz
Hi folks, This is a funny misprint, originally from Agence France Presse. It seems Boris Yeltsin is identified as a US President? The mistake is ironic, but at the same time not very surprising, because the discussion is about the impeachment of a President. In solidarity, Greg. -- Washington

[PEN-L:6879] RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Tom Walker
Patrick Bond wrote: Things are rough all over. Was reading these messages about radical economists who lose their sense of praxis and it reminded me of the editorial from the third issue of our SA journal "debate" a couple of years ago, in a special issue entitled "Intellectuals in Retreat": .

[PEN-L:6882] Re: Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Sam, Actually, increasingly it is the case that the students admitted into the top econ grad programs are math undergrad majors. Much preferred as a major to econ which is viewed as being taught at the undergrad level in a much too "watered down" (non-math) fashion. Plus, one might have

[PEN-L:6883] Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Peter Dorman
The first is one of Marx' finest passages, justly famous. The second is an example of the tendentious and invidious argumentation that has soured his reputation. Social democracy, whether you like it or not, has always been the main form of working class political advocacy within capitalism.

[PEN-L:6884] Re: Re: military euro

1999-05-16 Thread Peter Dorman
Bark, I've heard the figure "one million displacements" tossed around regarding Turkey and the Kurds. Can you or anyone else verify? And what does displacement mean in this context? Were they expelled through terror the way the ethnic Albanians were, or did they pick up and leave because the

[PEN-L:6885] Re: Re: Re: military euro

1999-05-16 Thread Doug Henwood
Peter Dorman wrote: Bark, I've heard the figure "one million displacements" tossed around regarding Turkey and the Kurds. Can you or anyone else verify? And what does displacement mean in this context? Were they expelled through terror the way the ethnic Albanians were, or did they pick up

[PEN-L:6887] RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Tom Walker
Peter Dorman wrote: The first is one of Marx' finest passages, justly famous. The second is an example of the tendentious and invidious argumentation that has soured his reputation. Social democracy, whether you like it or not, has always been the main form of working class political advocacy

[PEN-L:6888] Re: Re: Re: Re: military euro

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
I would note that the Turks have not gotten off scot-free from their repression of the Kurds. It is one of the reasons, although anti-Muslim prejudice is another one, for why Turkey was refused admittance to the EU, indeed refused even to be put on the waiting list. This has led to

[PEN-L:6891] Re: Re: Re: military euro

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Peter, I don't know. Obviously whatever the number is, it has a) happened over a much longer time than the more than a million Albanian Kosovars who have allegedly been "displaced" within the last two months, and b) I doubt those people have been expelled from Turkey, or most of them at

[PEN-L:6892] RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Tom Walker
By the way and for the record, I consider myself a déclassé petit bourgeois radical democrat. I suspect that a large part of Marx's and Lenin's rhetorical rancour towards the petit-bourgeois and social-democracy reflected frustration at the impossibility of ridding themselves of what they (in my

[PEN-L:6890] RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Tom Walker
This is a petit detail but the usage of 'petty bourgeoisie' was from a 1935 English translation used by Progress Publishers in old Moscow editions. As for Marx's attitute toward the P.B.s, perhaps the following sentence gives the best flavour of his overall tone: "No party exaggerates its powers

[PEN-L:6889] Re: Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Actually, a more accurate translation of "grand bourgeois" would be "great bourgeois," but "big" is not too far off either, and they certainly are what is contrasted with the "petit bourgeois." Barkley Rosser -Original Message- From: J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:

[PEN-L:6886] Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
I think it would help if people did not use the pejorative "petty bourgeois" which is inaccurate and not in Marx in the original and, in fact, just plain wrong. It sounds like that when spoken, but the actual term is "petit bourgeois" which is French for "small" (or "little") bourgeois to be

[PEN-L:6881] Re: military euro

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Well, after all the statements that have been made that implicitly or explicitly equate the situation of the Kurds with that of the Albanian Kosovars, perhaps it is worth keeping in mind some differences. Certainly the Turks have oppressed the Kurds very severely. But, I have not read of

[PEN-L:6880] Re: With Malice Toward None - American Style

1999-05-16 Thread J. Barkley Rosser, Jr.
Henry, Just for the record, I think that it was very appropriate for the United States leaders to apologize to China for this appalling bombing. I also think the US should pay for the damages and pay the families of the dead as well. While I'm being free with the taxpayers' money, I am also

[PEN-L:6877] Re: Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Patrick Bond
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Butler thinks of herself as a radical and a leftist, and Lucas doesn't. Butler writes (not your kind of) critiques of orthodoxy, Lucas writes apologies for it. I think I mentioned a little while back that in '97 Lucas did a study of South

[PEN-L:6872] Re: Re: RE: Old foggies/fogeys

1999-05-16 Thread Rob Schaap
Just thought I'd clarify: I meant the issue has been dressed up as two 'opposites' neither of which we need necessarily embrace - but if we don't embrace 'em, our discourse isn't in the frame - the frame constituted for economic debate today is one of Hayekian freedom plus price as optimal