Brad DeLong:
Does this mean that unfreedom at the periphery is functional for
capitalism at the core? I would say clearly not. The OECD gains
enormously more from trade with high-wage Taiwan than with low-wage
Vietnam, even though the rate of surplus-value is much higher in the
latter (with
the deaths in Indonesia need to be attributed to liberal U. S. capitalism.
Which is the political economy analogue of the point I was making the
other day about the bourgeois subject: the prosperous "freedom" of
the BS and the imperial hegemon thrive on marginalization and
oppression elsewhere.
I think this war over terminology --
was it genocide, or what -- is political in an
unconstructive sense. Calling the treatment of
native Americans or the Middle Passage "genocide"
is a rhetorical instrument for indicting bourgeois
demoratic capitalism (BDC) at its root. That doesn't
mean the
[off-list, because I've already said too much . . .]
Max Sawicky wrote:
...In the U.S., if we universalized a system where health
care was "free," we would see greater increases in the
share of GDP devoted to health care.
If that were so our non-free health care would be less expensive,
-Original Message-
From: Macdonald Stainsby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 2:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Pol Pot and Shades of Summers
From: Craven, Jim
Yes, some of the propaganda about the "Killing Fields" is exactly
that--propaganda.
Sorry, for my ignorance, but would someone explain how the US health care
system works. And please spell out the names of organizations, the initials
are meaningless to us outsiders.
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archives
Max wrote:
I think this war over terminology --
was it genocide, or what -- is political in an
unconstructive sense. Calling the treatment of
native Americans or the Middle Passage "genocide"
is a rhetorical instrument for indicting bourgeois
demoratic capitalism (BDC) at its root. That
Max wrote:
I think this war over terminology --
was it genocide, or what -- is political in an
unconstructive sense. Calling the treatment of
native Americans or the Middle Passage "genocide"
is a rhetorical instrument for indicting bourgeois
demoratic capitalism (BDC) at its root. That
What CB says I said:
"since he blithely ( and I do mean lightly) dismisses the Native American
and African American Genocides as " ha(ving) has zero political impact from
any left political standpoint you care to espouse "
What I really said:
"Calling the treatment of native Americans or the
Doug writes:
When I interviewed Steffie Woolhandler, one of the authors of that
study (which appeared originally in the Journal of the American
Medical Association), she said that nonprofit HMOs are increasingly
behaving like for-profit ones.
I interviewed David Himmelstein a couple of
There are good studies in electric power that show that ownership does
matter. The municipally-owned systems deliver at a lower cost than the
investor-owned, after controlling for all the things the Investor-owned
throw out to refute this.
Gene Coyle
Jim Devine wrote:
Max wrote:
The problem
The consistent fallacy in Max's argumentation on these issues is made clear by the
inconsistency of his two statements copied below. That fallacy is that his position
and arguments are not ideological or "political in an unconstructive sense", as he
puts it, but his opponents' are. The
Nadler - who was rated by Roll Call a few years ago as the second
most left-wing member of Congress, after Maxine Waters, and who's
also probably one of the smarter members of that esteemed body - is
drawing on polls and focus groups done by the AFL-CIO. They found
that people are so
Jim Devine wrote:
what about the recent study (reported in the LAT) that indicates that
not-for-profit HMOs do a much better job than for-profit ones?
When I interviewed Steffie Woolhandler, one of the authors of that
study (which appeared originally in the Journal of the American
Medical
Which again points up the superficiality or limited
import of ownership per se in how economic stuff happens.
what about the recent study (reported in the LAT) that indicates that
not-for-profit HMOs do a much better job than for-profit ones?
(one down, one to go.)
I did say 'limited'
I have had my honor besmirched. Why, I'm nothing but a commuter
programmer!
You mean you're responsible for all of our traffic jams?
mbs
Let's drop this holocaust accounting debate. It is going nowhere.
Max:
I have a unique escape from these tedious debates on how many
zillions were cruelly exterminated at the hands of fascism,
communism, or imperialism. I simply disclaim support for
any of them and try to live different.
The generalization that Doug is making is what I mean when I say that
racism/colonialism are as necessary and definitional of the relations of production of
the capitalist mode of production as wage-labor. Except that I would add that the
marginalization and oppression is not only "elsewhere"
Max:
I have a unique escape from these tedious debates on how many
zillions were cruelly exterminated at the hands of fascism,
communism, or imperialism. I simply disclaim support for
any of them and try to live different. It's not that hard,
actually.
LP: It depends on whose ox has been
This is a letter to a radio talk show host criticizing some frequent libertarian
callers.
Charles Brown
((
Dear Mildred,
Concerning Inside Detroit today:
Today's discussion demonstrated the fallacies of abstract and absolute interpretation
of the freedoms of speech and
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, JULY 21, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: In January through March of 1999, there were 1,484 mass
layoff actions by employers that resulted in the separation of 267,214
workers from their jobs for more than 30 days. Both the number of layoff
events and the number of
Which again points up the superficiality or limited
import of ownership per se in how economic stuff happens.
But I don't see how this follows, Max. The problem, it seems to
me, is that under a single payer plan , the means of medical production
are privately owned, but publicly
DOUG ORR wrote:
Hopefully this won't get lost in the flood on nonsense that has been flowing
the past few days.
A month or so ago, someone posted a quote from some congressman who said
that he knew there was no crisis in Social Security, but he could say
that publicly because no one would
Eugene Coyle wrote:
Brad misses my point. My point is that the deaths in Indonesia -- see his own
quote below -- need to be attributed to liberal U. S. capitalism.
Which is the political economy analogue of the point I was making the
other day about the bourgeois subject: the propserous
I am perhaps the only person in cyberspace to have met Henry in person, so
I want to share some impressions. Henry is in his sixties and lives on the
upper east side. Like Bill Lear, another enterpreneur, Henry enjoys the
trappings of success in the bourgeois world.
As we shared dinner at his
Max wrote:
The problem remains, however, that under a non-profit
system, public agencies, non-profit organizations, and
health care providers of various sorts could still
have incentives to over- or mis-prescribe, since
their compensation or general well-being is likely
to have something to do
Max wrote:
The problem remains, however, that under a non-profit
system, public agencies, non-profit organizations, and
health care providers of various sorts could still
have incentives to over- or mis-prescribe, since
their compensation or general well-being is likely
to have something to do
Bill, let's try to keep off-line hostilities, off line. I want to see
us return to more productive discourse.
"William S. Lear" wrote:
I have had my honor besmirched. Why, I'm nothing but a commuter
programmer!
I thought I'd share Henry's last smooches sent to me. Others should
share
In the mid 1990s there were several interesting radical
poli-econ arguments about the basis for massive increases
in healthcare costs/GDP. O'Connor did a great paper that partly
attributed cost increases to quality increases and longevity; Navarro
It's obvious that part of the increase is
I have had my honor besmirched. Why, I'm nothing but a commuter
programmer!
I thought I'd share Henry's last smooches sent to me. Others should
share theirs.
Good riddance to the pompous blowhard.
Bill
--- start of forwarded message ---
William S. (sick) Lear: Typical US perfidy.
How many deaths in WWI and who do you blame them on ? WW I is in the 20th Century.
Charles Brown
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/21/99 07:42PM
I want to remind PEN-L'ers that DeLong has a tendency to use false figures
in order to scandalize postcapitalist governments. He really doesn't
Max and Brad may not know that, as far as the rest of the world goes, the US
is the land of the three great cashectomies (append-, tonsill- and hyster-).
Since only nutters would volunteer to be opened up and rearranged, this is
doctor-initiated medicine and expense.
Birth by Caesarean section
In answer to Doug's question, here's a source:
The International Center for Technology Assessment has recently released a
study entitled "The Real Price of Gasoline." It can be downloaded in PDF
format from
http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/index.htm
Depending on how you
On 07/21/99 Henry C. "See no evil but thine" K. Liu writes:
I resign.
May productive discourse return to PEN-L.
Bill
The problem with all these health care discussions
is that they equate cost to service and
service to consumer demand. There seems
a near conspiracy of silence on the
provider side of the equation.
A few years back,
I played around with some stats on this and
found that physician
Doug,
The quote was from Nadler (D-NY), quoted in
The Progressive, an article by, I believe, Ruth
Coniff (sp?) about two months back.
For stats on cars versus bikes, I don't know
much, but there was an excellent article in In
These Times a couple of weeks ago by
Jane Holtz Kay (her book
To Whom It May Concern: The following is quite long but it is important
enough for you to read. It concerns my having to take Aquinas College of
Grand Rapids, MI to court because they are putting claim to some property
that I own in the Blackfoot Nation of North America. This institution and
its
Max:
I have a unique escape from these tedious debates on how many
zillions were cruelly exterminated at the hands of fascism,
communism, or imperialism. I simply disclaim support for
any of them and try to live different. It's not that hard,
actually.
It depends on whose ox has been gored. If
the guy was Gerry Nadler from NYC. Don't know
where the quote appeared, if anywhere.
mbs
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of DOUG ORR
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:9492] Social Security quote?
Doug--
Here's the URL for the article from the Chronicle. Hope it helps.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/1999/07/21/MN77987.DTL
Frances
-Original Message-
From: DOUG ORR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:45 AM
Good morning to the battle weary
The time difference between UK and US frequently results in the discovery
each morning of a barrage of heavy artillery that has taken place whilst I
have rested and recreated. Thus great efforts are made to catch up with
debates before I am sure that what I would
Max:
In the U.S., if we universalized a system where health
care was "free," we would see greater increases in the
share of GDP devoted to health care. This ought to
raise a concern about whether the foregone output might
have been more worthwhile
Socialists have to ration too.
mbs
Since 1993, margin debt has grown more than three times faster than household
debt and overall credit market debt. During the second quarter of 1999
alone, margin debt ballooned by 13 percent. The Financial Markets Center's
web site has posted a new page on margin borrowing that features
Max and Brad may not know that, as far as the rest of the world goes, the US
is the land of the three great cashectomies (append-, tonsill- and hyster-).
Since only nutters would volunteer to be opened up and rearranged, this is
doctor-initiated medicine and expense.
Birth by Caesarean section
G'day all,
I'd written ever such a clever post at home earlier, but my internet
service non-provider decided it shouldn't go out. And now I gotta write a
50-minute lecture for the boss with the modest little title 'Darwin, Marx
and Freud' - one I'll obviously have to deliver at chipmunk pace
Gene, that may have been so prior to deregulation, but may not be so in the
so-called new market(s) for electrical power which will marginalize such
municipal arrangements.
Ann
- Original Message -
From: Eugene Coyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999
All right. Just one more.
I said, among other things:
I think this war over terminology --
was it genocide, or what -- is political in an
unconstructive sense. Calling the treatment of
native Americans or the Middle Passage "genocide"
is a rhetorical instrument for indicting bourgeois
Brad De Long wrote:
Do the "deaths in Indonesia need to be attributed to liberal U.S.
capitalism"? To the U.S. national security state, perhaps. But even
there you have to construct a counterfactual picture of what the
succession to Sukarno would have been like: rule by the PKI is
scary to
Why, the mere rumor of an imaginary coup by the PKI was so horrifying that
hundreds of thousands of people had to be slaughtered.
Rob Schaap wrote:
What was so demonstrably brutal about the PKI, anyway?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Thank you for your comments and insights. Yes I do believe your insights are
worth being considered by others so I am posting them.
Ni-Kso-Ko-Wa
Jim Craven
-Original Message-
From: Macdonald Stainsby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 4:21 PM
To: [EMAIL
Look, I think that it is settled. Brad and Max think that the left has
done unspeakable evil, while imperialism has done some rather bad
stuff. Most of us disagree about the relative enomaties, but what I am
reading is becoming repetitive.
One minor point. From the standpoint of subjectivity,
One more question -- If slavery was not a Holocaust because the
intention was not immediate death
I said that slavery did not seem to me to be "genocide"--because the
aim was not to destroy West Africans as a people, but rather to be
(and remain) in the business of bribing some of them to
-Original Message-
From: Michael Perelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 4:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Perelman wrote:
One minor point. From the standpoint of subjectivity, the slaughter of
the Native Americans was a holocaust. Many people were
[snip]
So many Indians see these contradicitions and forms of naked
hypocrisy and see them as simply newer forms of the same old
shit--slander, desecration, violation of Indian ways and cultures as
a means for facilitating the progressive extermination of those
cultures and assimilation of
-Original Message-
From: James Michael Craven [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 6:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Education of our youth
The fight for national sovereignty and self-determination must
include serious scholarship to deal with the likes
Thursday, July 22, 1999
Obscure Lawsuit Could Alter U.S. Trade Policy
By EVELYN IRITANI, Los Angeles Times
Trade advocates are bracing for a ruling by a federal judge
in Alabama in a little-noticed lawsuit whose outcome could
dramatically alter the way the U.S. has conducted its trade
policy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sorry, for my ignorance, but would someone explain how the US health care
system works. And please spell out the names of organizations, the
initials
are meaningless to us outsiders.
Rod Hay
What an excellent way to avoid working!
I. Providers:
(a) private
From "Am I PKI or Non-PKI" by Pipit Kartawidjaja, Indonesia 40, 1985
p37-56.
"Usually the corpses were no longer recognizable as human. Headless.
Stomachs torn open. The smell was unimaginable. To make sure they didn't
sink, the carcasses were deliberately tied to, or impaled on, bamboo
stakes.
ASIET News Updates - July 21, 1999
==
* Top generals laugh off report of deal with Megawati
* Indonesia is preparing for massive post-ballot slaughter
* Indonesia expects Timor poll loss, plans evacuations
* Martial law may be called in Aceh, Irian: Minister
On Thursday, July 22, 1999 at 18:58:47 (-0400) Doug Henwood writes:
...
But it's in no small part relentless U.S. opposition to even the
mildest reformism in the "Third World" that has helped make
revolutionary movements more brutal than you or I would like. Who
knows how the Cuban revolution
I am sending the following piece as an indication of how the grand
bourgeoisie is thinking about recent changes in the international
political climate. Like most bourgeois thinking it contains both
progressive elements and non progressive elements. The end of
nationalism (ethnicism, tribalism,
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 5:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: American Indians disproportionately victims of violent crimes
New York Times, February 15, 1999
Study Says Indians Are Violent Crime Victims at
"Armed with wide-bladed knives called parangs, Moslem bands crept at night
into the homes of communists, killing entire families. ... Travelers ...
tell of small rivers and streams that have been literally clogged with
bodies. River transportation has at places been seriously impeded."
Time
-Original Message-
From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:9539] Re: Re: My Ideologies
Brad De Long wrote:
Do the "deaths in Indonesia need to be attributed to liberal U.S.
capitalism"? To the U.S.
Now am I losing my mind, or does the phrase
"That doesn't mean the term is inappropriate . . . "
where the antecedent for 'the term' is 'genocide'
not mean that I am allowing, in my wishy-washy way,
that the term COULD be appropriate?
mbs
touché
No, you are not losing your mind...
Brad
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