Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-19 Thread Michael Perelman
Chris, the Dutch led in financial innovations of all kinds. Annuities preceded insurance, I believe. Shipping insurance preceded fire insurance. Fire insurance was considered to be a public service. Ben Franklin worked on introducing fire insurance in Pennsylvania, I believe -- working from my

RE: Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-19 Thread Max Sawicky
The insurance case is on the table now. There is an interesting column today in the Post by Warren Buffet; his company sells insurance and lost a few billion last month. He makes what to me is a persuasive point that the costs of some disasters exceed the total capitalization of the industry, mu

Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-19 Thread Michael Perelman
Fred brings up a very interesting question. Market forces still exist, but there is probably a direct correlation between the social and political powers of any business and the degree of its need to respond to market forces. There was a famous American case in which Westinghouse had entered int

Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-19 Thread Frederick Guy
Just because companies have monopoly power and owe their power (property rights and all) to the state, doesn't mean that market mechanisms have become unimportant. Markets serve as a serious constraint on the choices open to the directors of almost any company. This is why I ask what you mean by '

Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-19 Thread W.R. Needham
Greg Scoflield has raised interesting issues. I am more pessimitic than he. But there are some optimistic predetermined milestones. If one defines a democratic socialist society as one moving in the direction of equality of citizenship and equality of human rights then, from the Declaration of Hu

Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-18 Thread Greg Schofield
--- Message Received --- From: Gar Lipow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 09:09:22 -0800 Subject: [PEN-L:19686] Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-18 Thread Fred Guy
I would find it helpful if you specified what you mean by 'socialism' and 'socialisied'. I am skeptical because some of the past uses of 'socialised' in this context do not seem applicable today. There was an argument based on certain isomorphisms of socialist and capitalist production and admini

Re: Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-18 Thread Gar Lipow
Hard-headed types? Greg there hundreds, perhaps thousands of groupsicals, with heads that are not only hard, but made of pure wood. Greg Schofield wrote: > Bill, the problem is partly found in your answer. > > That is you see proletarian socialism as the objective, as an abstraction which must

Re: Re: Socialism Now

2001-11-18 Thread Greg Schofield
Bill, the problem is partly found in your answer. That is you see proletarian socialism as the objective, as an abstraction which must be sold to the people. It is, by this thinking, already a sometime-in-the-future-thing. It is the error of these past decades of the movement that we have redu