Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On 26 Apr 2014, at 09:37, François Stephany wrote: > I've quite often opened a REPL on Rails apps in the production environment. > You can basically execute everything on the production environment. This is > quite useful for checking what's going on (usually a mismatch between your > develop

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

I've quite often opened a REPL on Rails apps in the production environment. You can basically execute everything on the production environment. This is quite useful for checking what's going on (usually a mismatch between your development/staging environment and the production one). Beware that yo

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > look into a running server' to find or investigate a problem makes all the > difference yeah, I agree. Logs are the last resource and hot debugs are unbeatable. They can cut costs a lot when investigating in the real environment wher

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

2014-04-25 17:48 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe : > > On 25 Apr 2014, at 22:40, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > >> To me... an interactive debugger in the production environment is not a >> requirement. > > Hmm, but that _is_ a key point: often being able to 'look into a running > server' to find

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On 25 Apr 2014, at 22:40, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > To me... an interactive debugger in the production environment is not a > requirement. Hmm, but that _is_ a key point: often being able to 'look into a running server' to find or investigate a problem makes all the difference - this int

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

What I found useful is the ability to patch (compile code) in a running server. That's really a plus when you can't shutdown the server. To me... an interactive debugger in the production environment is not a requirement. Esteban A. Maringolo 2014-04-25 17:38 GMT-03:00 Sebastian Sastre : > > > O

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On Apr 25, 2014, at 7:01 AM, askoh wrote: > Thanks for all the comments. Let me distilled what I have learned. Correct me > if I am wrong. > > In Smalltalk: > Production environment and development environment are very similar if not > identical. > Runtime and debug modes are identical. So, de

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 5:01 AM, askoh wrote: > Thanks for all the comments. Let me distilled what I have learned. Correct me > if I am wrong. > > In Smalltalk: > Production environment and development environment are very similar if not > identical. The "environments" on my laptop are the same a

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

AFAIK the term is "live coding" meaning the ability to fully code an application while it runs. On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:01 PM, askoh wrote: > Thanks for all the comments. Let me distilled what I have learned. Correct > me > if I am wrong. > > In Smalltalk: > Production environment and develop

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

Thanks for all the comments. Let me distilled what I have learned. Correct me if I am wrong. In Smalltalk: Production environment and development environment are very similar if not identical. Runtime and debug modes are identical. So, debugging is instantaneous available. Debugging occurs at the

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

Eliot Miranda wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: I am sorry, but I disagree. Yes, technically, much of what we take for granted is partially possible in most other languages, but it is often hard to use, an add-on, an afterthough

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > I am sorry, but I disagree. > > Yes, technically, much of what we take for granted is partially possible > in most other languages, but it is often hard to use, an add-on, an > afterthought. But more important, Java developers even d

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

Kilon wrote: >Visual Studio can do this with Edit and Continue  I know - but still not comparable. Apples and oranges - you know ;) In VS it works only to a certain extent and has same limits (mostly that in static languages nothing is so late bound as like in dynamic languages): "Edit and C

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

"You do not have to stop while it is running in production and you can change and inspect or even fix the program at will. With all the up's and downs of this approach." Visual Studio can do this with Edit and Continue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6J34B37wUc So the world definitely starts to

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

>The good developers / expert users will not do what you state. The eclipse >debug, inspector, watches >are very much part of a normal dev cycle in our >place with around 100 devs. This is not a problem of being expert or not. In languages like C/C++ you often need to deploy additional debug i

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

The good developers / expert users will not do what you state. The eclipse debug, inspector, watches are very much part of a normal dev cycle in our place with around 100 devs. Even in Smalltalk I have seen less capable developers not exploiting even a fraction of the capability Smalltalk has and

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

I am sorry, but I disagree. Yes, technically, much of what we take for granted is partially possible in most other languages, but it is often hard to use, an add-on, an afterthought. But more important, Java developers even do not use debuggers/inspectors/browsers during development, let alone

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

The capability exists, any dev team can take advantage if reqd of it, I am sure many may have in rare occassions. On the remote on the same LAN it will not be any different than debug is for eclipse / VisualStudio in dev. In Insurance, Banking in my experience, it will be the last resort, unless i

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

Thanks for reply. Are there cases of Java/Eclipse running in Production? Similarly with VC++ / Visual Studio? They would be very very slow wouldn't they? I am referring to real use case of live debugging in Production servers. I agree that this capability might not be attractive from point of view

Re: [Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

One can easily do that with Java / Eclipse or for VC++ / Visual Studio with attach to process. Probably I would reckon these to be more "secure" as industry prefers rather than having live debug capabilities built in to the code delivered or somehow "in-process". I am sure all others as in python,

[Pharo-dev] Debugging in Production Servers

Smalltalk has the capability of allowing live debugging in production servers. How unique is this capability? What other systems allow that? Is there a name for such capability? Can we coin one and market it? What are the pros and cons of having such a capability? All the best, Aik-Siong Koh