Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-18 Thread Schwab,Wilhelm K
...@netjam.org] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:04 PM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer Hi Göran-- Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect: Your stuff is basically low level serialization support - right

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-18 Thread Craig Latta
Hi Bill-- You are setting up some of the same mistakes that were made in SmartReferenceStream, only with both sides involved. What mistakes were those? This is a simple problem calling for a careful solution. I agree, and this seems a lot simpler to me than what has come before.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-18 Thread Schwab,Wilhelm K
] On Behalf Of Craig Latta [cr...@netjam.org] Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:42 PM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer Hi Bill-- You are setting up some of the same mistakes that were made in SmartReferenceStream, only with both sides

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-17 Thread Craig Latta
Hi Göran-- Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect: Your stuff is basically low level serialization support - right? It is, but what makes it interesting is that it's *interactive* serialization; the producing and consuming systems interact. Traditionally, you

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-16 Thread Craig Latta
But whatever [your GUI widgetry model] is, you can transfer a method using it to another live system, because (at least in the stuff I wrote) you can transfer any method no matter what its literals are. I see, but then we have to check if a given message send may end up in MNUs, right?

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-16 Thread Göran Krampe
On 02/14/2011 11:14 AM, Craig Latta wrote: [SNIP] This scheme is readable, editable, easy to store, and amenable to framework change (the four things you were after). Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect: Your stuff is basically low level serialization support

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread csrabak
I would like to add to this discussion the following: 1) Are we willing to create a Pharo only solution to a GUI designer? Or: 2) Can we think of a Smalltalk wide new solution which could be standard and flavour agnostic, so once a programmer learns to use it, its knowledge will be useful

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread csrabak
Craig, Fantastic wishlist! However, maybe because the synthetic nature of the proposal, I think I missed something: How can a ...a method be transferred to another live system. as per your 4. and Represent the state of that GUI with an object and even be amenable to framework change

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread Richard Durr
Here is more information: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/IB_UserGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
tx! Here is more information: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/IB_UserGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread Richard Durr
I do not really like QT and would prefer somethink more mac like. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: tx! Here is more information: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
For me I do not know. Just want to get educated. Building my taste and after I will be able to have a point of view. Stef On Feb 15, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Richard Durr wrote: I do not really like QT and would prefer somethink more mac like. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread Göran Krampe
On 02/14/2011 09:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote: Ok, sooo... not sure if I made the Pros/Cons clear enough to be understood here. Anyway, in my quest earlier to build Deltas and Deltastreams I ended up investigating formats and then I created

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-15 Thread csrabak
Em 15/02/2011 20:28, Craig Latta cr...@netjam.org escreveu: Hi Cesar-- Fantastic wishlist! However, maybe because the synthetic nature of the proposal... Well, I'm cheating here, because I've already implemented the givens (live method transfer and modules). See [1] and [2]. I

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Geert Claes
I'll leave in the middle whether or not the Morphic UI Designer is the right solution for Pharo, but looking at the number of posts in this thread I do have a feeling that: 1. most do agree that a better way to create the user interface really is needed 2. there are strong opinions on how this UI

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Sven Van Caekenberghe
Hi Göran, On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote: Hi! Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway. On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: You cite an example very similar to what Dolphin does, and we could do with SIXX. Dolphin serializes things

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Igor Stasenko
On 14 February 2011 09:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be wrote: Hi Göran, On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote: Hi! Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway. On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: You cite an example very similar to what

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Sven Van Caekenberghe
On 14 Feb 2011, at 10:28, Igor Stasenko wrote: - there does not seem to be a way to deal with non-ascii strings like 'Göran', shouldn't there be something like JSON escapes ? No. Wake up. Its 2011 outside. Use unicode encodings (like UTF-8) for reading/writing source streams. Just don't

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Craig Latta
Hi Göran-- Thanks for the summary! I think there's another option as well. If you have... -the ability to transfer methods directly between live systems, without having to recompile source code -a way of specifying groups of methods (modules), and prerequisite

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Richard Durr
not right now. argh! On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Richard Durr richard.d...@googlemail.comwrote: Ah okay I thought this to be a deliberate design decision. I would advise then to adopt it right now. On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Tobias Pape das.li...@gmx.de wrote: Am 2011-02-13 um

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
What is happening if the class of your application UI gets a new variables or if a superclass changes its structure? May be in objective-C you have to resave your nib? Stef Just a comment: :) The Interface Builder of Nextstep and Mac OS X – a closely Smalltalk-related and inspired

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-14 Thread Schwab,Wilhelm K
@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer What is happening if the class of your application UI gets a new variables or if a superclass changes its structure? May be in objective-C you have to resave your nib? Stef DynaBook.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-13 Thread Norbert Hartl
On 12.02.2011, at 19:13, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: No, I don't believe anything except smalltalk is bad. Just XML. I worked with Java, C# and a lot of XML to know that. Don't be confused... I'm not talking against XML alternatives because of microsoft or anything, I have serious technical

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-13 Thread Tobias Pape
Am 2011-02-13 um 17:58 schrieb Richard Durr: Btw, why the use of qt's signals and slots and not Cocoas outlets? Because the author of the Morphic Builder has had more experience with qt and likes it. He hasn't done Mac programming until now, afaik.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-13 Thread Göran Krampe
Hi! Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway. On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: You cite an example very similar to what Dolphin does, and we could do with SIXX. Dolphin serializes things not to avoid the image but to allow packaging. SIXX could do

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Marcel Taeumel
Hi. I wrote these Widgets and the Morphic Designer mostly from scratch. There is almost no stacking of libraries. ;) Widgets need Signals and Animations which I also wrote from scratch and which do not have any dependencies other than Squeak 4.1 and later. For now, I reused: -

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
On Feb 11, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Tobias Pape wrote: Hi again Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: How do they compare with announcements and event and #changed In the case of the UIBuilder of void, there are new widgets that extend existing ones but It would be better to

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
tobias if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better UI, you are free to think that. Now this is not the case. So if you can read my mail with the eyes of somebody that fight daily to make the system nicer, better, smaller So there is an engineering effort

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
Hi marcel thanks for this post Hi. I wrote these Widgets and the Morphic Designer mostly from scratch. There is almost no stacking of libraries. ;) Good news. Now do they replace in functionality existing ones? I mean - do they are new? - can/should they replace existing

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
I was rereading that and I will take me time to deeply understand the table. Had you read the Wiki, you would know. “convenient, lightweight and thread-safe callbacks” https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/signals

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Marcel Taeumel
Feel free to ask if some phrasing of a feature is not as clear as it should be. Maybe I should add more elaborate descriptions. :) Marcel -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/A-new-GUI-visual-designer-tp3067111p3302561.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread nullPointer
My knowledge of Smalltalk/Squeak/Pharo is limited, but I believe somethings. 1- I believe Pharo/Squeak needs a different way for render the morphs. I suppose Rome go to that direction. 2- A language, human readable, for define the UI. I believe than XAML or XUL, based on XML, be good examples.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Norbert Hartl
On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree. XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit. If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at the same time? Norbert readable=good xml=really bad (and not-readable either, most of the times...

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Hilaire Fernandes
Le 12/02/2011 14:14, Norbert Hartl a écrit : On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree. XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit. If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at the same time? Lisp, Scheme or even Smalltalk :)

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Norbert Hartl
On 12.02.2011, at 14:20, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: Le 12/02/2011 14:14, Norbert Hartl a écrit : On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree. XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit. If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Esteban Lorenzano
Yes, Smalltalk :) You can do exactly the same in a much better way. Last 10 years the world tried to use XML to... well, pretty much everything: as a meta-language to many DSLs, like XUL, XAML, but also for configurations, state-machines, etc. And it was a big failure... and the best example

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Norbert Hartl
On 12.02.2011, at 14:32, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: Yes, Smalltalk :) You can do exactly the same in a much better way. Last 10 years the world tried to use XML to... well, pretty much everything: as a meta-language to many DSLs, like XUL, XAML, but also for configurations,

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Tobias Pape
Am 2011-02-12 um 09:54 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: tobias if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better UI, you are free to think that. Please rest assured that this is _not_ the case. I just was astonished that you denied the usability of the Gui builder with

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Miguel Cobá
In the case of the UIBuilder of void, Void? The nikname of the personn He is called Marcel and posted elsewhere in the thread. I think that Stef is refering to nullPointer that also worked on a GUI Builder Cheers -- Miguel Cobá http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Tobias Pape
Am 2011-02-12 um 18:31 schrieb Miguel Cobá: In the case of the UIBuilder of void, Void? The nikname of the personn He is called Marcel and posted elsewhere in the thread. I think that Stef is refering to nullPointer that also worked on a GUI Builder Ok, thanks for clarification. So

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread nullPointer
Create the UI with plain Smalltalk code have problems... my UIBuilder use that system and have limitations for limit of lityerals in a spec method, and other problems. Another alternative is the VW or Smalltalk/X mechanism, no readable, no updatable; only could be modified for the same designer

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Esteban Lorenzano
No, I don't believe anything except smalltalk is bad. Just XML. I worked with Java, C# and a lot of XML to know that. Don't be confused... I'm not talking against XML alternatives because of microsoft or anything, I have serious technical complains against it. Also, XUL is not microsoft's and

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
On Feb 12, 2011, at 6:22 PM, Tobias Pape wrote: Am 2011-02-12 um 09:54 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: tobias if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better UI, you are free to think that. Please rest assured that this is _not_ the case. ok good I just was

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
xml is good a simple interexchange format. Now when you have you xml stream you have to map your nodes (different to objects) so for UISPec you can just get a parser and object builder for free. NO need to load XMLSupport. read my VW examples to understand. In VW you can click on a button

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread nullPointer
no updatable; ??? only could be modified for the same designer routine. ??? Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI Painter of VW? I´m not; I´m not mutant :) The use of XAML or XUL is for portability. Exists many tools for design a GUI in XAML or XUL. The perfect GUI

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Hernán Morales Durand
2011/2/12 nullPointer epic...@gmail.com: no updatable; ??? only could be modified for the same designer routine. ??? Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI Painter of VW? I´m not; I´m not mutant :) The use of XAML or XUL is for portability. Exists many tools for design

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Igor Stasenko
my 0.002 cents: - XML suxx - we need better UI - we need good graphics engine - we need good event system - we need to evaluate all alternatives :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread Schwab,Wilhelm K
12, 2011 5:04 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer 2011/2/12 nullPointer epic...@gmail.com: no updatable; ??? only could be modified for the same designer routine. ??? Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-12 Thread nullPointer
XML suxxx XAML or XUL suxxxs too? regards. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/A-new-GUI-visual-designer-tp3067111p3303424.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-11 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
Hi geert The problem is not simply the license. The problem is: - integrating widgets - integrating extra libraries We cannot stack libraries. So there is an engineering effort needed. Stef Stéphane Ducasse wrote: @Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-11 Thread Tobias Pape
Hi all Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: Hi geert The problem is not simply the license. The problem is: - integrating widgets - integrating extra libraries We cannot stack libraries. So there is an engineering effort needed. I do not understand that.

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-11 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
Hi all Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: Hi geert The problem is not simply the license. The problem is: - integrating widgets - integrating extra libraries We cannot stack libraries. So there is an engineering effort needed. I do not understand

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-11 Thread Tobias Pape
Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Du casse: Hi all Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Du casse: Hi geert The problem is not simply the license. The problem is: - integrating widgets - integrating extra libraries We cannot stack libraries. So there is an

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-11 Thread Tobias Pape
Hi again Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse: How do they compare with announcements and event and #changed In the case of the UIBuilder of void, there are new widgets that extend existing ones but It would be better to not subclass and get better widgets. What prevents you

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2011-02-10 Thread Geert Claes
Stéphane Ducasse wrote: @Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the wiki does not say it or I could not find it. I reckon the GUI designer would be a nice addition to Pharo? Did you end up hearing from Tobias about the license? -- View this message in context:

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2010-12-04 Thread Stéphane Ducasse
@Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the wiki does not say it or I could not find it. On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Tobias Pape wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 2010-12-01 um 16:13 schrieb Igor Stasenko: On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com

[Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2010-12-01 Thread nullPointer
https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer It really looks very professional. I made a user interface builder for Polymorph, which I left because I was too complicated for me. I hope that now someone more knowledgeable can really necessary to implement

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2010-12-01 Thread Igor Stasenko
On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com wrote: https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer It really looks very professional. I made a user interface builder for Polymorph, which I left because I was too complicated for me. I hope that

Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer

2010-12-01 Thread Tobias Pape
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 2010-12-01 um 16:13 schrieb Igor Stasenko: On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com wrote: https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer It really looks very professional. I made a user