...@netjam.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:04 PM
To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer
Hi Göran--
Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect:
Your stuff is basically low level serialization support - right
Hi Bill--
You are setting up some of the same mistakes that were made in
SmartReferenceStream, only with both sides involved.
What mistakes were those?
This is a simple problem calling for a careful solution.
I agree, and this seems a lot simpler to me than what has come before.
] On Behalf Of Craig Latta
[cr...@netjam.org]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:42 PM
To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer
Hi Bill--
You are setting up some of the same mistakes that were made in
SmartReferenceStream, only with both sides
Hi Göran--
Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect:
Your stuff is basically low level serialization support - right?
It is, but what makes it interesting is that it's *interactive*
serialization; the producing and consuming systems interact.
Traditionally, you
But whatever [your GUI widgetry model] is, you can transfer a
method using it to another live system, because (at least in the
stuff I wrote) you can transfer any method no matter what its
literals are.
I see, but then we have to check if a given message send may end up
in MNUs, right?
On 02/14/2011 11:14 AM, Craig Latta wrote:
[SNIP]
This scheme is readable, editable, easy to store, and amenable to
framework change (the four things you were after).
Thinking about this a bit more I realize one interesting aspect:
Your stuff is basically low level serialization support
I would like to add to this discussion the following:
1) Are we willing to create a Pharo only solution to a GUI designer? Or:
2) Can we think of a Smalltalk wide new solution which could be standard and
flavour
agnostic, so once a programmer learns to use it, its knowledge will be
useful
Craig,
Fantastic wishlist!
However, maybe because the synthetic nature of the proposal, I think I missed
something:
How can a ...a method be transferred to another live system. as per your 4.
and Represent the state of that GUI with an object and even be amenable to
framework change
Here is more information:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/IB_UserGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
tx!
Here is more information:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/IB_UserGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html
I do not really like QT and would prefer somethink more mac like.
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr
wrote:
tx!
Here is more information:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/596382/what-describes-an-outlet-best-in-objective-c-cocoa
For me I do not know. Just want to get educated. Building my taste and after I
will be able to have a point of view.
Stef
On Feb 15, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Richard Durr wrote:
I do not really like QT and would prefer somethink more mac like.
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
On 02/14/2011 09:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote:
Ok, sooo... not sure if I made the Pros/Cons clear enough to be understood here. Anyway,
in my quest earlier to build Deltas and Deltastreams I ended up investigating
formats and then I created
Em 15/02/2011 20:28, Craig Latta cr...@netjam.org escreveu:
Hi Cesar--
Fantastic wishlist! However, maybe because the synthetic nature of
the proposal...
Well, I'm cheating here, because I've already implemented the
givens (live method transfer and modules). See [1] and [2].
I
I'll leave in the middle whether or not the Morphic UI Designer is the
right solution for Pharo, but looking at the number of posts in this thread
I do have a feeling that:
1. most do agree that a better way to create the user interface really is
needed
2. there are strong opinions on how this UI
Hi Göran,
On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway.
On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
You cite an example very similar to what Dolphin does, and we could do with
SIXX.
Dolphin serializes things
On 14 February 2011 09:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be wrote:
Hi Göran,
On 14 Feb 2011, at 00:18, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway.
On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
You cite an example very similar to what
On 14 Feb 2011, at 10:28, Igor Stasenko wrote:
- there does not seem to be a way to deal with non-ascii strings like
'Göran', shouldn't there be something like JSON escapes ?
No. Wake up. Its 2011 outside. Use unicode encodings (like UTF-8) for
reading/writing source streams.
Just don't
Hi Göran--
Thanks for the summary! I think there's another option as well. If
you have...
-the ability to transfer methods directly between live systems,
without having to recompile source code
-a way of specifying groups of methods (modules), and
prerequisite
not right now. argh!
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Richard Durr
richard.d...@googlemail.comwrote:
Ah okay I thought this to be a deliberate design decision. I would advise
then to adopt it right now.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Tobias Pape das.li...@gmx.de wrote:
Am 2011-02-13 um
What is happening if the class of your application UI gets a new variables or
if a superclass changes its structure?
May be in objective-C you have to resave your nib?
Stef
Just a comment: :)
The Interface Builder of Nextstep and Mac OS X – a closely Smalltalk-related
and inspired
@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer
What is happening if the class of your application UI gets a new variables or
if a superclass changes its structure?
May be in objective-C you have to resave your nib?
Stef
DynaBook.
On 12.02.2011, at 19:13, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
No, I don't believe anything except smalltalk is bad. Just XML. I worked with
Java, C# and a lot of XML to know that.
Don't be confused... I'm not talking against XML alternatives because of
microsoft or anything, I have serious technical
Am 2011-02-13 um 17:58 schrieb Richard Durr:
Btw, why the use of qt's signals and slots and not Cocoas outlets?
Because the author of the Morphic Builder
has had more experience with qt and likes it.
He hasn't done Mac programming until now, afaik.
Hi!
Sorry, this post turned out long. But hopefully interesting anyway.
On 02/13/2011 06:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
You cite an example very similar to what Dolphin does, and we could do with
SIXX.
Dolphin serializes things not to avoid the image but to allow packaging.
SIXX could do
Hi.
I wrote these Widgets and the Morphic Designer mostly from scratch. There is
almost no stacking of libraries. ;)
Widgets need Signals and Animations which I also wrote from scratch and
which do not have any dependencies other than Squeak 4.1 and later.
For now, I reused:
-
On Feb 11, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Tobias Pape wrote:
Hi again
Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
How do they compare with announcements and event and #changed
In the case of the UIBuilder of void, there are new widgets that extend
existing ones but
It would be better to
tobias
if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better UI,
you are free to think that.
Now this is not the case. So if you can read my mail with the eyes of somebody
that fight daily to make the system
nicer, better, smaller
So there is an engineering effort
Hi marcel
thanks for this post
Hi.
I wrote these Widgets and the Morphic Designer mostly from scratch. There is
almost no stacking of libraries. ;)
Good news.
Now do they replace in functionality existing ones? I mean
- do they are new?
- can/should they replace existing
I was rereading that and I will take me time to deeply understand the table.
Had you read the Wiki, you would know.
“convenient, lightweight and thread-safe callbacks”
https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/signals
Feel free to ask if some phrasing of a feature is not as clear as it should
be. Maybe I should add more elaborate descriptions. :)
Marcel
--
View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/A-new-GUI-visual-designer-tp3067111p3302561.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive
My knowledge of Smalltalk/Squeak/Pharo is limited, but I believe somethings.
1- I believe Pharo/Squeak needs a different way for render the morphs. I
suppose Rome go to that direction.
2- A language, human readable, for define the UI. I believe than XAML or
XUL, based on XML, be good examples.
On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I'm sorry but I disagree.
XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit.
If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at the same time?
Norbert
readable=good
xml=really bad (and not-readable either, most of the times...
Le 12/02/2011 14:14, Norbert Hartl a écrit :
On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I'm sorry but I disagree.
XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit.
If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at the same time?
Lisp, Scheme or even Smalltalk :)
On 12.02.2011, at 14:20, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Le 12/02/2011 14:14, Norbert Hartl a écrit :
On 12.02.2011, at 13:57, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
I'm sorry but I disagree.
XML as a meta-language is old, bad and shit.
If you say XML is no-go shouldn't you present an alternative at
Yes, Smalltalk :)
You can do exactly the same in a much better way.
Last 10 years the world tried to use XML to... well, pretty much everything: as
a meta-language to many DSLs, like XUL, XAML, but also for configurations,
state-machines, etc. And it was a big failure... and the best example
On 12.02.2011, at 14:32, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
Yes, Smalltalk :)
You can do exactly the same in a much better way.
Last 10 years the world tried to use XML to... well, pretty much everything:
as a meta-language to many DSLs, like XUL, XAML, but also for configurations,
Am 2011-02-12 um 09:54 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
tobias
if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better
UI, you are free to think that.
Please rest assured that this is _not_ the case.
I just was astonished that you denied the usability of
the Gui builder with
In the case of the UIBuilder of void,
Void?
The nikname of the personn
He is called Marcel and posted elsewhere in the thread.
I think that Stef is refering to nullPointer that also worked on a GUI
Builder
Cheers
--
Miguel Cobá
http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
Am 2011-02-12 um 18:31 schrieb Miguel Cobá:
In the case of the UIBuilder of void,
Void?
The nikname of the personn
He is called Marcel and posted elsewhere in the thread.
I think that Stef is refering to nullPointer that also worked on a GUI
Builder
Ok, thanks for clarification.
So
Create the UI with plain Smalltalk code have problems... my UIBuilder use
that system and have limitations for limit of lityerals in a spec method,
and other problems.
Another alternative is the VW or Smalltalk/X mechanism, no readable, no
updatable; only could be modified for the same designer
No, I don't believe anything except smalltalk is bad. Just XML. I worked with
Java, C# and a lot of XML to know that.
Don't be confused... I'm not talking against XML alternatives because of
microsoft or anything, I have serious technical complains against it. Also, XUL
is not microsoft's and
On Feb 12, 2011, at 6:22 PM, Tobias Pape wrote:
Am 2011-02-12 um 09:54 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
tobias
if you want to think that I'm an asshole and I do not want to have a better
UI, you are free to think that.
Please rest assured that this is _not_ the case.
ok good
I just was
xml is good a simple interexchange format.
Now when you have you xml stream you have to map your nodes (different to
objects)
so for UISPec you can just get a parser and object builder for free. NO need to
load XMLSupport.
read my VW examples to understand.
In VW you can click on a button
no
updatable;
???
only could be modified for the same designer routine.
???
Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI Painter of VW? I´m
not; I´m not mutant :)
The use of XAML or XUL is for portability. Exists many tools for design a
GUI in XAML or XUL.
The perfect GUI
2011/2/12 nullPointer epic...@gmail.com:
no
updatable;
???
only could be modified for the same designer routine.
???
Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI Painter of VW? I´m
not; I´m not mutant :)
The use of XAML or XUL is for portability. Exists many tools for design
my 0.002 cents:
- XML suxx
- we need better UI
- we need good graphics engine
- we need good event system
- we need to evaluate all alternatives
:)
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
12, 2011 5:04 PM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A new GUI visual designer
2011/2/12 nullPointer epic...@gmail.com:
no
updatable;
???
only could be modified for the same designer routine.
???
Can you modify manually the code generated for the UI
XML suxxx
XAML or XUL suxxxs too?
regards.
--
View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/A-new-GUI-visual-designer-tp3067111p3303424.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi geert
The problem is not simply the license. The problem is:
- integrating widgets
- integrating extra libraries
We cannot stack libraries.
So there is an engineering effort needed.
Stef
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
@Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the
Hi all
Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
Hi geert
The problem is not simply the license. The problem is:
- integrating widgets
- integrating extra libraries
We cannot stack libraries.
So there is an engineering effort needed.
I do not understand that.
Hi all
Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
Hi geert
The problem is not simply the license. The problem is:
- integrating widgets
- integrating extra libraries
We cannot stack libraries.
So there is an engineering effort needed.
I do not understand
Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Du casse:
Hi all
Am 2011-02-11 um 09:58 schrieb Stéphane Du casse:
Hi geert
The problem is not simply the license. The problem is:
- integrating widgets
- integrating extra libraries
We cannot stack libraries.
So there is an
Hi again
Am 2011-02-11 um 14:26 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse:
How do they compare with announcements and event and #changed
In the case of the UIBuilder of void, there are new widgets that extend
existing ones but
It would be better to not subclass and get better widgets.
What prevents you
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
@Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the wiki does not say it or I
could not find it.
I reckon the GUI designer would be a nice addition to Pharo? Did you end up
hearing from Tobias about the license?
--
View this message in context:
@Tobias: Hi, what is the license because the wiki does not say it or I could
not find it.
On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Tobias Pape wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am 2010-12-01 um 16:13 schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com
https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer
It really looks very professional. I made a user interface builder for
Polymorph, which I left because I was too complicated for me. I hope that
now someone more knowledgeable can really necessary to implement
On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com wrote:
https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer
It really looks very professional. I made a user interface builder for
Polymorph, which I left because I was too complicated for me. I hope that
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am 2010-12-01 um 16:13 schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 1 December 2010 12:48, nullPointer epic...@gmail.com wrote:
https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki/designer
It really looks very professional. I made a user
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