Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi Kingsley, In https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2015Feb/0116.html You said, re Annalist: My enhancement requests would be that you consider supporting of at least one of the following, in regards to storage I/O: 1. LDP 2. WebDAV 3. SPARQL Graph Protocol 4. SPARQL 1.1 Insert, Upd

Re: AJAR (WAS: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?)

On 2/24/15 12:20 PM, Paul Tyson wrote: On Tue, 2015-02-24 at 11:43 -0500, Kingsley Idehen wrote: It looks like that on the surface, but it simply boils down to: 1. Javascript 2. Ajar (Asynchronous JavaScript and RDF) -- TimBL tried to kick of this "Ajar" meme a few years ago with limited uptake

Re: AJAR (WAS: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?)

On Tue, 2015-02-24 at 11:43 -0500, Kingsley Idehen wrote: > It looks like that on the surface, but it simply boils down to: > > 1. Javascript > 2. Ajar (Asynchronous JavaScript and RDF) -- TimBL tried to kick of this > "Ajar" meme a few years ago with limited uptake, but its darn neat!) Kingsley

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/24/15 6:07 AM, Graham Klyne wrote: Hi Kingsley, In https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2015Feb/0116.html You said, re Annalist: My enhancement requests would be that you consider supporting of at least one of the following, in regards to storage I/O: 1. LDP 2. WebDAV 3. SPARQL

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

I just pushed the link for information I forward the question to the main author of the *semantic_forms * ​tool He is the best to answer about it.​ -- Jean-Claude Moissinac 2015-02-23 14:29 GMT+01:00 Kingsley Idehen : > On 2/23/15 5:20 AM, Jean-Claud

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/23/15 5:20 AM, Jean-Claude Moissinac wrote: Perhaps something interesting here https://github.com/jmvanel/semantic_forms Great! BTW -- is there a live demo instance somewhere? -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Founder & CEO OpenLink Software Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com Personal

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/23/15 4:34 AM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: On 21 February 2015 at 20:38, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: I admit that what you sketch here is better than what I have sketched with named graphs. But it seems to require a very sophisticated editor or a very sophisticated user. Agreed that the edi

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Perhaps something interesting here https://github.com/jmvanel/semantic_forms -- Jean-Claude Moissinac 2015-02-23 10:34 GMT+01:00 Stian Soiland-Reyes < soiland-re...@cs.manchester.ac.uk>: > On 21 February 2015 at 20:38, Michael Brunnbauer > wrote: > > > I admit that what you sketch here is b

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 21 February 2015 at 20:38, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: > I admit that what you sketch here is better than what I have sketched with > named graphs. But it seems to require a very sophisticated editor or a > very sophisticated user. Agreed that the editor needs to be more clever than three text

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/21/15 9:48 AM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: How do you minimize the user interaction space i.e., reduce clutter -- >especially if you have a lot of relations in scope or the possibility that >such becomes the reality over time? > I don't think concurrent updates I related to "resources" or sp

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/21/15 2:57 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Kingsley, I am fully aware of the distinction between RDF as a data model and its serializations. That's why I wrote: "RDF *serializations* often group triples by subject URI." What I tweeted recently was, that despite having concept models and abs

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Stian, I admit that what you sketch here is better than what I have sketched with named graphs. But it seems to require a very sophisticated editor or a very sophisticated user. I was talking about an editor where the user can add triples with arbitrary properties. So I would prefer the so

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, I wouldn’t go as far as saying that OWL is a complete failure, but agree to most of those thoughts, especially: > As a way of documenting types and properties it is tolerable. If I write > down something in production rules I can generally explain to an "average > joe" what they m

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Kingsley, I am fully aware of the distinction between RDF as a data model and its serializations. That's why I wrote: "RDF *serializations* often group triples by subject URI." What I tweeted recently was, that despite having concept models and abstractions in our heads, when pipelining data and

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/21/15 1:34 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Kingsley, I don't need a lecture from you each time you disagree. I am not lecturing you. I am trying to make the conversation clearer. Can't you see that? Please explain what you think "Resource" means in "Resource Description Framework". I

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/21/15 1:58 PM, Pat Hayes wrote: On Feb 21, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: On 2/21/15 9:48 AM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: On 2/20/15 12:04 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Not to criticize, but to seek clarity: Wha

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On Feb 21, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: > On 2/21/15 9:48 AM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: >> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Kingsley Idehen >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2/20/15 12:04 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: >>> >>> >>> Not to criticize, but to seek clarity: >>> >>> What

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

You could call it a Concise Bounded Description http://www.w3.org/Submission/CBD/ RDF is used to describe resources, most of which exist with or with RDF's help. :-) > On Feb 21, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Martynas Jusevičius > wrote: > > Kingsley, > > I don't need a lecture from you each time you

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Kingsley, I don't need a lecture from you each time you disagree. Please explain what you think "Resource" means in "Resource Description Framework". In any case, I think you know well what I mean. A "grouped" RDF/XML output would be smth like this: http://resource";> http://type"/> value

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/21/15 9:48 AM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: On 2/20/15 12:04 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Not to criticize, but to seek clarity: What does the term "resources" refer to, in your usage context? In a world of Relations (this is wha

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: > On 2/20/15 12:04 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: > > > Not to criticize, but to seek clarity: > > What does the term "resources" refer to, in your usage context? > > In a world of Relations (this is what RDF is about, fundamentally) its har

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hey Michael, the resource description being edited is loaded with a SPARQL query. The updated description is inserted using SPARQL update. Although often it is useful to edit and update full content from a named graph using Graph Store Protocol instead. So view and update mechanisms are not neces

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

? It's Friday. Get thee to beer. Quickly. On Fri, 2/20/15, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: Subject: Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF? To: "Michael Brunnbauer" Cc: public-lod@w3.org, "Pat Hayes" Date: Friday, Februar

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Sorry, now I forgot my strawman! Too late on a Friday.. So say the user of an triple-order-preserving UI says: prov:wasAttributedTo :alice, :charlie, :bob. .. And consider the order important because Bob didn't contribute as much to the document as Alice and Charlie. In that case the above sta

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

This is what I meant in my earlier message when touching on collection. If the order of the resources (let's stick with foaf:Person) matter, then the property used should not have a range of (only) foaf:Person. So say One problem is that say in OWL you don't really have an easy way to type colle

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/20/15 1:19 PM, Graham Klyne wrote: Hi Stian, Thanks for the mention :) Graham Klyne's Annalist is perhaps not quite what you are thinking of (I don't think it can connect to an arbitrary SPARQL endpoint), but I would consider it as falling under a similar category, as you have a user inte

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Pat, On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:45:12AM -0600, Pat Hayes wrote: > > Another simpler example would be rdfs:range foaf:Person. > > http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Person says that "Something is a Person if > > it > > is a person". How can an RDF container of several persons be a person? >

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Pat, so far as "corporation is a person" that is what we have foaf:Agent for. A corporation can sign contracts and be an endpoint for communication and payments the same as a person so to model the world of law, business, finance and stuff that is a very real thing. If you take that ide

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi Stian, Thanks for the mention :) Graham Klyne's Annalist is perhaps not quite what you are thinking of (I don't think it can connect to an arbitrary SPARQL endpoint), but I would consider it as falling under a similar category, as you have a user interface to define record types and forms, b

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi All, The infrastructure used in [1,2] to get transparency and auditability may be of interest for this discussion. Thanks for comments, -- Adrian [1] www.astd.org/Publications/Magazines/The-Public-Manager/Archives/2013/Fall/Social-Knowledge-Transfer-Using-Executable-English [2] www.re

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi All, The infrastructure used in [1,2] to get transparency and auditability may be of interest for this discussion. Thanks for comments, -- Adrian [1] www.astd.org/Publications/Magazines/The-Public-Manager/Archives/2013/Fall/Social-Knowledge-Transfer-Using-Executable-English [2] www.re

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On Feb 20, 2015, at 2:42 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: > > Hello Paul, > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 09:19:06PM +0100, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: >>> Another case is where there really is a total ordering. For instance, the >>> authors of a scientific paper might get excited if you list them in

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/20/15 12:04 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Hey Michael, this one indeed. The layout is generated with XSLT from RDF/XML. The triples are grouped by resources. Not to criticize, but to seek clarity: What does the term "resources" refer to, in your usage context? In a world of Relations

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hey Michael, this one indeed. The layout is generated with XSLT from RDF/XML. The triples are grouped by resources. Within a resource block, properties are sorted alphabetically by their rdfs:labels retrieved from respective vocabularies. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:59 PM, Michael Brunnbauer wrot

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Martynas, sorry! You mean this one? http://linkeddatahub.com/ldh?mode=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphity.org%2Fgc%23EditMode Nice! Looks like a template but you still may have the triple object ordering problem. Do you? If yes, how did you address it? Regards, Michael Brunnbauer On Fri, Feb 20, 201

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/20/15 10:23 AM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: I find it funny that people on this list and semweb lists in general like discussing abstractions, ideas, desires, prejudices etc. That's because dog-fooding hasn't yet become second nature, across the aforementioned communities. Don't give up, j

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/20/15 10:09 AM, Paul Houle wrote: So some thoughts here. OWL, so far as inference is concerned, is a failure and it is time to move on. It is like RDF/XML. I think that's a little too generic a comment. Describing the nature of relations using relations is vital. Not all of OWL is

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/20/15 4:54 AM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: On 19 Feb 2015 21:42, "Kingsley Idehen" > wrote: >> No, this is dangerous and is hiding the truth. > What? (Just to clarify my view, obviously you know this :) ) That RDF Triples are not ordered in an RDF Graph.

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

I find it funny that people on this list and semweb lists in general like discussing abstractions, ideas, desires, prejudices etc. However when a concrete example is shown, which solves the issue discussed or at least comes close to that, it receives no response. So please continue discussing the

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

So some thoughts here. OWL, so far as inference is concerned, is a failure and it is time to move on. It is like RDF/XML. As a way of documenting types and properties it is tolerable. If I write down something in production rules I can generally explain to an "average joe" what they mean. If

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Stian, On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:54:33AM +, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: > So if you tell the user his information is just RDF, but neglect to mention > "and then some", he could wrongfully think that his list of say "preferred > president" has its order preserved in any exposed RDF. Th

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 19 Feb 2015 21:42, "Kingsley Idehen" wrote: >> No, this is dangerous and is hiding the truth. > What? (Just to clarify my view, obviously you know this :) ) That RDF Triples are not ordered in an RDF Graph. They might be ordered in something else, but that is not part of the RDF graph. (Reif

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 09:19:06PM +0100, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: > > Another case is where there really is a total ordering. For instance, the > > authors of a scientific paper might get excited if you list them in the > > wrong order. One weird old trick for this is RDF contain

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

- On Wed, 2/18/15, Paul Houle wrote: Subject: Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF? To: "Gannon Dick" Cc: "Linked Data community" Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 6:10 PM Yes,  there is the general project of capturing 100% of critical information in doc

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/19/15 4:08 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: No, this is dangerous and is hiding the truth. What? Take the red pill and admit to the user that this particular property is unordered, for instance by always listing the values sorted (consistency is still king). A Predicate is a sentenc

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

No, this is dangerous and is hiding the truth. Take the red pill and admit to the user that this particular property is unordered, for instance by always listing the values sorted (consistency is still king). Then make it easy to do lists and collections. Don't let the user encode information he

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 12:27:41PM -0500, Paul Houle wrote: > I think you're particular concerned about the ordering of triples where ?s > and ?p are the same? > > ?s ?p ?o1 , ?o2, ?o3, ?o4 . > > right? The case for ?s ?p is more compelling but that does not mean that the case for

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/19/15 1:40 PM, Bo Ferri wrote: Hi Paul, maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you are generally looking for (in the Semantic Web world) is the things that are going on at RDF Shapes group [1], or (but I guess you are aware of them)? What they can't do (yet; afaik) is the "family instance loo

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi Paul, I’ve looked at your initial msg & 22 responses, including the Albert Einstein references that detail your requirements. If I may rephrase your question, you appear to be looking for something simple for non-technical people to use, thus the “Access” reference. Also, you appear to need

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hi Paul, maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you are generally looking for (in the Semantic Web world) is the things that are going on at RDF Shapes group [1], or (but I guess you are aware of them)? What they can't do (yet; afaik) is the "family instance loop check", or? On 2/18/2015 11:59 PM

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

I think you're particular concerned about the ordering of triples where ?s and ?p are the same? ?s ?p ?o1 , ?o2, ?o3, ?o4 . right? Sometimes people don't care, sometimes they do. One scenario is we are drawing a page about the creative works of Issac Asimov, the Kinks, or Jeff Bridges and wa

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/19/15 10:32 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: Hello Paul, let me put this into two simple statements: 1) There is no canonical ordering of triples 2) A good triple editor should reflect this by letting the user determine the order Regards, Michael Brunnbauer Yes! Kingsley On Thu, Feb

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, let me put this into two simple statements: 1) There is no canonical ordering of triples 2) A good triple editor should reflect this by letting the user determine the order Regards, Michael Brunnbauer On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 03:50:33PM +0100, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: > > Hello

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/19/15 9:07 AM, Paul Houle wrote: There are quite a few simple heuristics that will give "good enough" results, consider for instance: (1) order predicates by alphabetical order (by rdfs:label or by localname or the whole URL) (2) order predicates by some numerical property given by a cus

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, I am not so sure if this is good enough. If you add something to the end of a list in a UI, you normally expect it to stay there. If you accept that it will be put in its proper position later, you may - as user - still have trouble figuring out where that position is (even with the h

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

There are quite a few simple heuristics that will give "good enough" results, consider for instance: (1) order predicates by alphabetical order (by rdfs:label or by localname or the whole URL) (2) order predicates by some numerical property given by a custom predicate in the schema (3) order pred

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/19/15 4:52 AM, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: Hello Paul, an interesting aspect of such a system is the ordering of triples - even if you restrict editing to one subject. Either the order is predefined and the user will have to search for his new triple after doing an insert or the user determin

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello, > On 19 févr. 2015, at 11:31, Uldis Bojars wrote: > > It would make sense to define UI element order at a higher level than > individual triples. Defining the position for every triple separately would > lead to chaos. > > A more sensible approach 'd be to define the order of statement

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Uldis, On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 12:31:40PM +0200, Uldis Bojars wrote: > It would make sense to define UI element order at a higher level than > individual triples. Defining the position for every triple separately would > lead to chaos. > > A more sensible approach 'd be to define the order

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 19 February 2015 at 11:52, Michael Brunnbauer wrote: > an interesting aspect of such a system is the ordering of triples - even > if you restrict editing to one subject. Either the order is predefined and > the > user will have to search for his new triple after doing an insert or the > user >

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Yes, RDF 1.1 allows blank nodes to be shared across named graphs in a single dataset - obviously programmatically you have to be careful about how you achieve this. >From http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-dataset : > Blank nodes can be shared between graphs in an RDF dataset. There's

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Graham Klyne's Annalist is perhaps not quite what you are thinking of (I don't think it can connect to an arbitrary SPARQL endpoint), but I would consider it as falling under a similar category, as you have a user interface to define record types and forms, browse and edit records, with views defin

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hello Paul, an interesting aspect of such a system is the ordering of triples - even if you restrict editing to one subject. Either the order is predefined and the user will have to search for his new triple after doing an insert or the user determines the position of his new triple. In the latt

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

evout enough, but the > food is very bad,' Kim growled; 'and we walk as though we were mad--or > English. It freezes at night, too.' > -- Kim by "Rudyard Kipling" (Joseph Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)), Chapter > XIII, Copyright 1900,1901 > --

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

;and we walk as though we were mad--or English. It freezes at night, too.' -- Kim by "Rudyard Kipling" (Joseph Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)), Chapter XIII, Copyright 1900,1901 ---- On Wed, 2/18/15, Paul Houle wrote: Subject: "Mic

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Paul, does this look something like the interface you could use? http://linkeddatahub.com/ldh?mode=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphity.org%2Fgc%23EditMode Martynas graphityhq.com On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 11:59 PM, Paul Houle wrote: > Well here is my user story. > > I am looking at a page that looks like thi

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Well here is my user story. I am looking at a page that looks like this http://dbpedia.org/page/Albert_Einstein it drives me up the wall that the following facts are in there: :Albert_Einstein dbpedia-owl:childOf :EinsteinFamily ; dbpedia-owl:parentOf :EinsteinFamily . which is just awfu

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/18/15 5:07 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: Why do you assume I assume something? Because he spoke about an Microsoft-Access-like solution. If you've used that tool you would know that massive dataset edits, as you indicated, can't be the focal point of his quest, hence my comment. I s

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Why do you assume I assume something? I simply stated what should be considered. When Paul replies, we'll know what kind of dataset it is, and whether these issues apply. He mentions DBPedia as an example, which returns around 20 named graphs for triples. How are those supposed to be edited? sel

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/18/15 4:01 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote: we have the editing interface, but ontologies are not of much help here. The question is, how and where to draw the boundary of the description that you want to edit, because millions of triples on one page will not work. Why do you assume that the

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

Hey Paul, we have the editing interface, but ontologies are not of much help here. The question is, how and where to draw the boundary of the description that you want to edit, because millions of triples on one page will not work. Fine-grained named graphs and/or SPARQL queries/updates are 2 sol

Re: "Microsoft Access" for RDF?

On 2/18/15 3:08 PM, Paul Houle wrote: I am looking at some cases where I have databases that are similar to Dbpedia and Freebase in character, sometimes that big (ok, those particular databases), sometimes smaller. Right now there are no blank nodes, perhaps there are things like the "com

"Microsoft Access" for RDF?

I am looking at some cases where I have databases that are similar to Dbpedia and Freebase in character, sometimes that big (ok, those particular databases), sometimes smaller. Right now there are no blank nodes, perhaps there are things like the "compound value types" from Freebase which are