Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 12 July 2018 at 15:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > But I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you > all will be on your own. I just want to echo everyone else's sentiments and say thank you for all the work you've done, and for the example you've set to all of us.

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

As someone who's not been involved for some time now, but was release manager for a three or four years (2.3.1 through to 2.5.1), trying to have the release manager also be a decider of potentially controversial things doesn't seem scalable. Getting a release out is a heck of a lot of work, both t

[python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

Hi, 2018-07-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Mariatta Wijaya : > What is the role of the successor(s)? Do we assume "whatever Guido did", or > is this an opportunity to come up with a new process? > > One useful resource is Vicky Brasseur's talk: Passing the Baton, Succession > planning for your project https:/

[python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 6:35 PM, Łukasz Langa wrote: > I'm +1 to an Informational PEP around the state of the art in project > governance. I think this is a great idea. There's a lot of experience out there on different governance models, but of course any given project only uses one of them, so

Re: [python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

Le 13/07/2018 à 13:31, Nathaniel Smith a écrit : > > I volunteer to co-author such a PEP. But I'm not up to doing it on my > own. So... who else wants to be a co-author? (I'm not going to > pressure anyone, but Brett, Mariatta, and Carol, please know that your > names were the first ones that jum

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

Oh, yeah, I guess I wasn’t clear there. I am not suggesting that release managers add this new responsibility. I’m suggesting that a release cycle length is an amount of time the community is used to dealing with, and therefore might make a good cadence for elections or whatever other rotation

Re: [python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

Excerpts from Nathaniel Smith's message of 2018-07-13 04:31:00 -0700: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 6:35 PM, Łukasz Langa wrote: > > I'm +1 to an Informational PEP around the state of the art in project > > governance. > > I think this is a great idea. There's a lot of experience out there on > diff

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

2018-07-13 12:40 GMT+02:00 Victor Stinner : > * Take a decision/PEP. For a Python change (usually a PEP), when they > are two good solutions and we fail to find a consensus, the BDFL > chooses his favorite solution. Usually, when the BDFL pronounces, > everybody has to follow his choice. > > * PEP.

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

Le 13/07/2018 à 18:36, Victor Stinner a écrit : > > Let me elaborate this part. One quality of the BDFL (Guido) is to take > unpopular decision when he knows that it is the right choice. > > Some examples: > > * PEP 572: assignment expressions. > > * The PEP 446 "Make newly created file descri

[python-committers] possible future PEP discussion format [was: Transfer of power]

On 07/12/2018 01:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: For the bigger decisions (and there aren't many coming up), I have some > suggestions on ways to improve the discussions so that the interested > parties can have a more equal say in the outcome and so that the > discussions can be more time effi

Re: [python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 at 04:31 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 6:35 PM, Łukasz Langa wrote: > > I'm +1 to an Informational PEP around the state of the art in project > governance. > > I think this is a great idea. There's a lot of experience out there on > different governance mod

[python-committers] possible future PEP discussion format [was: Transfer of power]

On 07/12/2018 01:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > For the bigger decisions (and there aren't many coming up), I have some > suggestions on ways to improve the discussions so that the interested > parties can have a more equal say in the outcome and so that the > discussions can be more time effi

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 at 03:44 Victor Stinner wrote: > Hi, > > 2018-07-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Mariatta Wijaya : > > What is the role of the successor(s)? Do we assume "whatever Guido did", > or > > is this an opportunity to come up with a new process? > > > > One useful resource is Vicky Brasseur's tal

Re: [python-committers] possible future PEP discussion format [was: Transfer of power]

On 07/13/2018 11:21 AM, Ethan Furman wrote: [...] Sorry, was trying to generate a new thread. Please respond to that one instead. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyth

Re: [python-committers] possible future PEP discussion format [was: Transfer of power]

On 2018-07-13, Ethan Furman wrote: > I stopped reading the PEP 572 threads once it was painfully > obvious that almost all new replies were just saying the same > things over and over and over... Perhaps this can be seen as a kind of economic problem. What is the cost of posting to a PEP discussi

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

A wild idea: How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for language changes (i.e. basically for accepting a PEP)? A unanimity requirement will inevitably lead to more conservative decision

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 13, 2018, at 15:11, Jack Jansen wrote: > > How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, > and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for > language changes (i.e. basically for accepting a PEP)? Possibly, but even if unanimity

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Jul 13, 2018, at 02:30, Anthony Baxter wrote: > > As someone who's not been involved for some time now, but was release manager > for a three or four years (2.3.1 through to 2.5.1), trying to have the > release manager also be a decider of potentially controversial things doesn't > seem sca

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 03:30 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Jul 13, 2018, at 15:11, Jack Jansen wrote: How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, and actually the “3” isn’t important either) where unanimity is required for language changes (i.e. basically for accepting a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 13Jul2018 1600, Larry Hastings wrote: I disagree.  My proposal for Python's Council Of Elders is partially based on the Supreme Court Of The United States.  For example, SCOTUS judges are appointed for life, and I think PCOE members should be too. When SCOTUS renders a decision: * the de

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

On Jul 13, 2018, at 03:40, Victor Stinner wrote: > Should we split the role "take the final decision on PEPs" into > sub-roles for example? Do we need in advance to define BDFL-delegate > for some kinds of PEPs? Or the BDFL should define per-PEP, which ones > he doesn't want to handle and need a

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 11:39 AM, Brett Cannon > wrote: > > > > On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 at 03:44 Victor Stinner > wrote: > Hi, > > 2018-07-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Mariatta Wijaya >: > > > * Diversity. Last years,

Re: [python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

On Jul 13, 2018, at 04:31, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > I volunteer to co-author such a PEP. But I'm not up to doing it on my > own. So... who else wants to be a co-author? (I'm not going to > pressure anyone, but Brett, Mariatta, and Carol, please know that your > names were the first ones that ju

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

On Jul 13, 2018, at 17:11, Carol Willing wrote: > If I look at the many important roles that Guido has played, I personally > believe that he has been someone who encouraged many women (and I'm sure > others as well) and most importantly provided a safe place to share ideas. If > we reflect on

Re: [python-committers] Organizing an informational PEP on project governance options (was Re: Transfer of power)

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > On Jul 13, 2018, at 04:31, Nathaniel Smith wrote: >> >> I volunteer to co-author such a PEP. But I'm not up to doing it on my >> own. So... who else wants to be a co-author? (I'm not going to >> pressure anyone, but Brett, Mariatta, and Ca

Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

> > On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > > On Jul 13, 2018, at 17:11, Carol Willing wrote: > >> If I look at the many important roles that Guido has played, I personally >> believe that he has been someone who encouraged many women (and I'm sure >> others as well) and most impo

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 04:20 PM, Steve Dower wrote: On 13Jul2018 1600, Larry Hastings wrote: I disagree.  My proposal for Python's Council Of Elders is partially based on the Supreme Court Of The United States.  For example, SCOTUS judges are appointed for life, and I think PCOE members should be too.

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Larry Hastings] ... > >- However, once appointed, Elders are appointed is "for life". The >only way to remove one would be for them to voluntarily step down--there >would be no mechanism to remove one from office. (Perhaps this is too >strong--perhaps one could be removed by a u

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 06:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: Or, short of that, by an approval vote of the Fellows (whatever it is we call for-real PSF members these days). Forgive my ignorance, but how does one become a PSF member? -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Larry Hastings] > ... >> >> However, once appointed, Elders are appointed is "for life". The only way >> to remove one would be for them to voluntarily step down--there would be no >> mechanism to remove one from office. (Perhaps this is too

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > > Or, short of that, by an approval vote of the Fellows (whatever it is we > call for-real PSF members these days). > [Ethan Furman] > Forgive my ignorance, but how does one become a PSF member? That depends on which year you ask ;-) The current rules are here: https://www.pytho

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 07/13/2018 06:54 PM, Tim Peters wrote: So:  term limits!  Say, 12 years.  If there are 3 Elders, replace one every 12/3 = 4 years.  At the start we can use the `secrets` module to pick which Elders get the first 4, 8, and 12-year terms ;-) Fresh blood is a good thing in all areas. Can I

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Nathaniel Smith ] > That's not really true -- life expectancy *at birth* was ~35 years, > but mostly because so many people died as infants/children. If you > survived long enough to get nominated for a judgeship, then by that > point your life expectancy wasn't too different from what we're used

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Tim] > So: term limits! Say, 12 years. If there are 3 Elders, replace one > every 12/3 = 4 years. At the start we can use the `secrets` module to pick > which Elders get the first 4, 8, and 12-year terms ;-) > > Fresh blood is a good thing in all areas. > > [Larry] > Can I get you to clarif

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:22 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > [Nathaniel Smith ] >> >> That's not really true -- life expectancy *at birth* was ~35 years, >> but mostly because so many people died as infants/children. If you >> survived long enough to get nominated for a judgeship, then by that >> point yo

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Nathaniel Smith] > ... > Well, sure, we can try to come up with something to slot into the > space Guido is leaving, while keeping everything else the same, that's > one option. There are already differences between "a Guido" and what Larry suggested. > But I doubt it's the best one. Then p

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

> > > How about a triumvirate (or trium*ate if “vir” is seen as too male-centric, > The root "vir" in appropriate contexts (though clearly not in all, e.g in `virile`) has long been divorced from its original "male" denotation. The best example is probably in the word "virtus" (in English, "virtue

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:17 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:53 Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> >> That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited >> Delegation Organization). > > > Nice! "GUIDO decided ..." Totally going to mess with Guido's personal SEO, >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

On 13 July 2018 at 00:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordi