On 11 Jul, 2010, at 6:23, Guilherme Polo wrote:
> 2010/7/10 Miki Tebeka :
>> Hello Tal,
>>
>>> I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library.
>> -1.
>> One of the biggest "selling points" for me when switching to python was the
>> "out of the box" working IDE with REPL, syntax
On 11 Jul, 2010, at 1:05, Tal Einat wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library.
>
> I have been using IDLE since 2002 and have been doing my best to help
> maintain and further develop IDLE since 2005.
>
> In recent years IDLE has received negligible i
On 2010-07-11, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> On 11 Jul, 2010, at 1:05, Tal Einat wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library.
-1
> > I have been using IDLE since 2002 and have been doing my best to help
> > maintain and further develop IDLE since 2005.
[s
On 11 Jul, 2010, at 10:57, Tal Einat wrote:
>
> When I ran into bugs I fixed them and submitted a patch. I have also
> done so for quite a few bugs reported by others. However, there are
> currently several bugs in the tracker which nobody is taking any
> notice of. IIRC most of the recent bugs a
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>
> On 11 Jul, 2010, at 10:57, Tal Einat wrote:
>>
>> When I ran into bugs I fixed them and submitted a patch. I have also
>> done so for quite a few bugs reported by others. However, there are
>> currently several bugs in the tracker which n
On 7/11/10 5:03 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
The OSX issues al seem to be related to general Tk or Tkinter bugs
on OSX. I know to little about Tk and Tkinter to seriously work on
those.
Ronald,
How about http://bugs.python.org/issue6075? I first submitted that patch
in May '09, and updated
On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Tal Einat wrote:
> Most of the responses up to this point have been strongly against my
> proposal. The main reason given is that it is nice to have a graphical
> IDE supported out-of-the-box with almost any Python installation. This
> is especially important for nov
Perhaps there are two separable issues. Many of us see it as extremely
important that some IDLE be part of the standard Python distribution
("batteries included"), for the reasons that several people have given.
However, there is merit to the suggestion to have an active separate
development, with
> In the 2009 Google Summer of Code I was the mentor for a Brazilian
> student, Guilherme Polo, who completed and extended important
> improvements to IDLE made during the previous year by David Scherer.
> Given the somewhat official nature of this work, I assumed that these
> needed improvements w
2010/7/11 "Martin v. Löwis" :
>> In the 2009 Google Summer of Code I was the mentor for a Brazilian
>> student, Guilherme Polo, who completed and extended important
>> improvements to IDLE made during the previous year by David Scherer.
>> Given the somewhat official nature of this work, I assumed
Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:
>
> On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Tal Einat wrote:
>
> The people who are actually *in* those environments seem to disagree with
> you :). I think you underestimate the difficulty of getting software
> installed and overestimate the demands of new Python users and students.
> I think Martin has always supported me in some way and I really
> appreciate that. But, maybe because I won commit privileges solely
> based on GSoC work, I felt other developers wouldn't approve my
> commits without previous discussion and that is the major reason for
> not committing most of my
Guilherme Polo wrote:
> 2010/7/11 "Martin v. Löwis" :
>>> In the 2009 Google Summer of Code I was the mentor for a Brazilian
>>> student, Guilherme Polo, who completed and extended important
>>> improvements to IDLE made during the previous year by David Scherer.
>>> Given the somewhat official nat
> My point is that I don't think I am exaggerating IDLE's flaws. I'm not
> saying that it is no longer usable or useful, but I am saying that its
> current state is not "okay".
So can you produce a list of patches that you think can be accepted as-is?
Preferably, make to lists: bug fixes, and new
> FWIW this is why I started IDLE-Spoon (well, continued Noam Raphael's
> project of the same name, in a sense). The idea was to have a fork of
> IDLE with new features which need to be tried out by "beta testers" to
> iron out all of the glitches before making it into the main version,
> like IDLE
On the notion that IDLE is fatally flawed and is driving away potential
users of Python (to put the statements in their most extreme form):
It seems that there are (at least) two very different communities people
have in mind. I can appreciate that highly expert programmers may find IDLE
insuffici
On 11 Jul, 2010, at 15:24, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> On 7/11/10 5:03 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> The OSX issues al seem to be related to general Tk or Tkinter bugs
>> on OSX. I know to little about Tk and Tkinter to seriously work on
>> those.
>
> Ronald,
>
> How about http://bugs.pyth
On 11 Jul, 2010, at 19:35, Bill Janssen wrote:
> Tal Einat wrote:
>
>> Although several people say that they think having IDLE in the stdlib
>> is important, the fact is that IDLE is considered quite unimportant by
>> most of the Python community. Having IDLE in the stdlib may be
>> convenient
On Sun, Jul 11 2010, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> On the notion that IDLE is fatally flawed and is driving away
> potential users of Python (to put the statements in their most extreme
> form):
>
> It seems that there are (at least) two very different communities
> people have in mind. I can appreciate
Hi Kurt, I'm glad you've joined this discussion.
My point is that whatever the reason, for the past five years (at
least) nearly every issue related to IDLE has taken years to be
resolved, and many have still not been resolved. As a result the
current state of IDLE is quite poor.
To be perfectly
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:41 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>> My point is that I don't think I am exaggerating IDLE's flaws. I'm not
>> saying that it is no longer usable or useful, but I am saying that its
>> current state is not "okay".
>
> So can you produce a list of patches that you think can
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:44 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>> FWIW this is why I started IDLE-Spoon (well, continued Noam Raphael's
>> project of the same name, in a sense). The idea was to have a fork of
>> IDLE with new features which need to be tried out by "beta testers" to
>> iron out all of t
Kurt B. Kaiser:
> I'm mystified about the comments that the GUI is ugly. It is minimal.
> On XP, it looks exactly like an XP window with a simple menubar. Those
> who haven't looked at it for awhile may not be aware of the recent
> advances made by Tk in native look and feel. What is ugly?
If I read the patch correctly it replaces the existing 8.4 support by support
for 8.5. That would not be acceptable because it would result in a
non-functional version of IDLE for anyone that hasn't installed a custom copy
of Tk.
Not quite. It doesn't specify a version of Tk to run; it ch
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 00:36:33 +0200
"Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
> > I think Martin has always supported me in some way and I really
> > appreciate that. But, maybe because I won commit privileges solely
> > based on GSoC work, I felt other developers wouldn't approve my
> > commits without previous di
Tal Einat wrote:
I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library.
I use IDLE every day. It does everything I want an IDE to do, it looks
simple and doesn't waste screen real estate like some other IDEs do, it
supports proportionally spaced fonts correctly, its syntax coloring
On 7/12/10 10:16 AM, Michiel Overtoom wrote:
Tal Einat wrote:
I would like to propose removing IDLE from the standard library.
I use IDLE every day. It does everything I want an IDE to do, it looks
simple and doesn't waste screen real estate like some other IDEs do, it
supports proportionally
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> +1. Don't be afraid. We are quite good at pointing out mistakes after
> the fact :)
Just make sure to subscribe to python-checkins and keep an eye out for
replies to your commits. Most post hoc review comments come in as
replies to the com
On 12/07/2010 15:42, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
+1. Don't be afraid. We are quite good at pointing out mistakes after
the fact :)
Just make sure to subscribe to python-checkins and keep an eye out for
replies to your commits. Most post
On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Tal Einat wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:44 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>>> FWIW this is why I started IDLE-Spoon (well, continued Noam Raphael's
>>> project of the same name, in a sense). The idea was to have a fork of
>>> IDLE with new features which need to be tried o
Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
>> Using Tkinter is a major reason that maintaining and further
>> developing IDLE is difficult. For example, it took me many hours just
>> to get a working Tkinter scrolled frame widget, having had to write it
>> from scratch and struggle with the under-documented Canvas widg
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
>
>
> As I recollect, much of what Scherer did in VIDLE related to running
> multiple IDLE copies.
>
> For that reason, the VIDLE changes have to be evaluated carefully to
> determine what has already been incorporated. I believe I added a
>
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
> Also, the current right click edit action on Windows is to only open an
> edit window; no shell. And it uses the subprocess! So, some of the
> comments on this thread are not up to date.
>
> The reason that bug languished for two years was
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Michael Foord
wrote:
> That mailing list (python-checkins) is way too high traffic for many
> committers to monitor. I hope people making comments on checkins also email
> the committer directly.
Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message
On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Neil Hodgson wrote:
>On the main editing screen of IDLE, the most noticeable issue is
> that there is no horizontal scroll bar even though the text will move
> left when you move the caret beyond the rightmost visible character.
That was a design decision by Guido to enco
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Tal Einat wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:44 AM, "Martin v. Löwis"
>> wrote:
FWIW this is why I started IDLE-Spoon (well, continued Noam Raphael's
project of the same name, in a sense). The idea was to h
On 12/07/2010 16:52, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Michael Foord
wrote:
That mailing list (python-checkins) is way too high traffic for many
committers to monitor. I hope people making comments on checkins also email
the committer directly.
Not normally, no -
On Jul 12, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Reid Kleckner wrote:
> (Somwhat off-topic): Another pain point students had was accidentally
> shadowing stdlib modules, like random. Renaming the file didn't solve
> the problem either, because it left behind .pycs, which I had to help
> them delete.
I feel your
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 03:48:12PM -0400, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:
> I feel your pain. It seems like every third person who starts playing with
> Twisted starts off by making a file called 'twisted.py' and then getting
> really confused by the behavior. I would love it if this could be fixed, but
Am 12.07.2010 13:01, schrieb Tal Einat:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:41 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>>> My point is that I don't think I am exaggerating IDLE's flaws. I'm not
>>> saying that it is no longer usable or useful, but I am saying that its
>>> current state is not "okay".
>>
>> So can yo
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> Doesn't absolute import help?
Not when both modules are at the top level; both acceptably provide
the same name. The let's-play-with-it script just wasn't *intended*
to be a module.
-Fred
--
Fred L. Drake, Jr.
"A storm broke loo
On 12/07/2010 22:33, Fred Drake wrote:
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
Doesn't absolute import help?
Not when both modules are at the top level; both acceptably provide
the same name. The let's-play-with-it script just wasn't *intended*
to be a module.
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Michael Foord
wrote:
> I'm sure Brett will love this idea, but if it was impossible to reimport the
> script being executed as __main__ with a different name it would solve these
> problems.
Indeed! And I'd be quite content with such a solution, since I
consider
>> Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message to
>> a committer's email address,
>
> There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
Unfortunately, no: we don't have email addresses of all committers.
Regards,
Martin
___
Python-Dev mai
On 12/07/2010 22:47, Fred Drake wrote:
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Michael Foord
wrote:
I'm sure Brett will love this idea, but if it was impossible to reimport the
script being executed as __main__ with a different name it would solve these
problems.
Indeed! And I'd be quite
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:39 AM, Michael Foord
wrote:
>> Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message to
>> a committer's email address,
>
> There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
That "somewhere" isn't readily available when I hit reply to the
checkin email though (for me
2010/7/12 "Martin v. Löwis" :
>>> Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message to
>>> a committer's email address,
>>
>> There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
>
> Unfortunately, no: we don't have email addresses of all committers.
What about the python-committers mailing l
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:47:31 -0400
Fred Drake wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Michael Foord
> wrote:
> > I'm sure Brett will love this idea, but if it was impossible to reimport the
> > script being executed as __main__ with a different name it would solve these
> > problems.
>
> Inde
On 12/07/2010 22:52, Nick Coghlan wrote:
[snip...]
so it's usually just a matter of hitting
"Reply" and sending the review comment to the list. With a new
committer I'll make the effort to cc them directly in case they aren't
subscribed yet, but I expect everyone else to be monitor the checkins
Am 12.07.2010 23:57, schrieb Benjamin Peterson:
> 2010/7/12 "Martin v. Löwis" :
Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message to
a committer's email address,
>>>
>>> There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
>>
>> Unfortunately, no: we don't have email addresses of all
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Michael Foord
wrote:
> Given how high traffic python-checkins is I don't consider that a reasonable
> place to send follow-up and nor do I consider it the responsibility of
> committers to monitor it. As you said earlier this *isn't* in our standard
> dev procedure
On 7/12/2010 5:57 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
2010/7/12 "Martin v. Löwis":
Not normally, no - there's no easy way to connect a checkin message to
a committer's email address,
There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
Unfortunately, no: we don't have email addresses of all committers.
What a
On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Tal Einat wrote:
> I have been maintaining my own fork of IDLE for several years and
> manually keeping it in sync with IDLE (this was simple). The
> difference is that there was no single major new feature I was working
> on, such as the addition of a sub-process in IDLE-fork
On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Fred Drake wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Michael Foord
> wrote:
>> I'm sure Brett will love this idea, but if it was impossible to reimport the
>> script being executed as __main__ with a different name it would solve these
>> problems.
>
> Indeed! And
On 7/12/2010 6:04 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
Given how high traffic python-checkins is I don't consider that a
reasonable place to send follow-up and nor do I consider it the
responsibility of committers to monitor it. As you said earlier this
*isn't* in our standard dev procedures and nor do I thi
Kurt B. Kaiser:
>> The tear off menus are ugly as well as being non-standard on all three
>> major platforms.
>
> Well, would you discard them? They can (occasionally) be useful.
Yes, I would replace the menus with ones missing the tear line.
Most of the GUI toolkits experimented with tear-off
Fred Drake wrote:
Not when both modules are at the top level; both acceptably provide
the same name. The let's-play-with-it script just wasn't *intended*
to be a module.
I wonder whether this kind of problem would be less prevalent
if the tutorials etc. encouraged naming top-level scripts wit
Neil Hodgson wrote:
> Kurt B. Kaiser:
>
>>> The tear off menus are ugly as well as being non-standard on all three
>>> major platforms.
>> Well, would you discard them? They can (occasionally) be useful.
>
>Yes, I would replace the menus with ones missing the tear line.
> Most of the GUI tool
On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Steve Holden wrote:
> I agree, the tear-off menus are an anachronism.
OK, thanks for the input. I use them rarely, myself.
> I'd also like a pony in the form of easily-changeable sets of
> keystroke mappings. I have never found Alt-P and its cousins either
> memorable or c
I wrote:
> Indeed! And I'd be quite content with such a solution, since I
> consider scripts and modules to be distinct.
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Except that modules can often be executed as scripts...
Rest assured, I'm well aware of the history, and don't seriou
Am 13.07.2010 00:48, schrieb Eric Smith:
> On 7/12/2010 6:04 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
>> Given how high traffic python-checkins is I don't consider that a
>> reasonable place to send follow-up and nor do I consider it the
>> responsibility of committers to monitor it. As you said earlier this
>> *i
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 00:11, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
There's a one-to-one mapping somewhere.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, no: we don't have email addresses of all committers.
>>
>> What about the python-committers mailing list? That has at least all
>> the active ones, correct?
>
> Probably. Als
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 18:20, Tal Einat wrote:
> The (hopefully) compelling arguments were others, such as the sentence
> following the one you quoted:
>
> "I think that in its current state, IDLE may still be helpful for
> learning Python, but it is more likely to drive away users who run
> int
On Mon, Jul 12 2010, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> I don't recall that VIDLE has anything to do with running multiple IDLE
> copies.
Well, I stole the ephemeral port idea from him!
> What's in VIDLE is a lot of bug fixes and some improvements. For
> example, you can configure it to not require having
Hi Bruce:
Please click on the link below to find the contributor agreement form along
with
instructions on how to send it.
http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/
If you have any questions, please let me know.
Thanks,
Pat Campbell
PSF Secretary & Administrator
On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Kurt
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