Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-20 Thread Paul Moore
On 20 January 2012 03:57, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: FWIW, it might well be that I can't be available for the 3.3 final release (I haven't finalized my vacation schedule yet for August). In the interest of not having Windows releases depend on one person, and having gone through

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-20 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:57:45 + Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 January 2012 03:57, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: FWIW, it might well be that I can't be available for the 3.3 final release (I haven't finalized my vacation schedule yet for August). In the interest of

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-20 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 20.01.2012 00:54, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: I can't help noticing that so far, worries about the workload came mostly from people who don't actually bear that load (this is no accusation!), while those that do are the proponents of the PEP... Ok, so let me add then that I'm worried

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-20 Thread Tim Golden
On 20/01/2012 19:14, Georg Brandl wrote: Am 20.01.2012 00:54, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: I can't help noticing that so far, worries about the workload came mostly from people who don't actually bear that load (this is no accusation!), while those that do are the proponents of the PEP... Ok, so

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-20 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 20.01.2012 21:08, schrieb Tim Golden: On 20/01/2012 19:14, Georg Brandl wrote: Am 20.01.2012 00:54, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: I can't help noticing that so far, worries about the workload came mostly from people who don't actually bear that load (this is no accusation!), while those

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:12:06 +1100 Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le jeudi 19 janvier 2012 à 00:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough alphas? That sounds completely unrelated.

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: I fear the day that people asking questions on the tutor or python-list mailing lists will have to say (e.g.) I'm using Python 3.4.1 and standard library 1.2.7 in order to specify the version they're using. Yeah,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 19.01.2012 01:12, schrieb Steven D'Aprano: One on-going complaint is that Python-Dev doesn't have the manpower or time to do everything that needs to be done. Bugs languish for months or years because nobody has the time to look at it. Will going to a more rapid release cycle give

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Martin v. Löwis
I can't help noticing that so far, worries about the workload came mostly from people who don't actually bear that load (this is no accusation!), while those that do are the proponents of the PEP... Ok, so let me add then that I'm worried about the additional work-load. I'm particularly

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: I can't help noticing that so far, worries about the workload came mostly from people who don't actually bear that load (this is no accusation!), while those that do are the proponents of the PEP... Ok, so let me

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-19 Thread Brian Curtin
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 17:54, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: Ok, so let me add then that I'm worried about the additional work-load. I'm particularly worried about the coordination of vacation across the three people that work on a release. It might well not be possible to make

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:52:20 + Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 January 2012 07:46, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: But I am dubious that releases that are obsolete in 6 months and lack 3rd party support will see much production use. Whether people would use the

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:37:08 +0900 Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: availability of release management volunteers, Dramatic increase here. It may look like RM is not so demanding -- run a few scripts to put out the alphas/betas/releases. But the RM needs to stay on top of

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
This won't be a surprise to Antoine or Georg (since I've already expressed the same opinion privately), but I'm -1 on the idea of official releases of the whole shebang every 6 months. We're not Ubuntu, Fedora, Chrome or Firefox with a for-profit company (or large foundation) with multiple paid

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Antoine Pitrou writes: Since testing is the bottleneck on what users consider to be available for me, you cannot decrease the amount of testing (alpha, beta releases) by anywhere near the amount you're increasing frequency, or you're just producing as is snapshots. The point is

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le mercredi 18 janvier 2012 à 21:48 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : My claim is that I don't expect much uptake if you don't do close to as many of what are called alpha and beta tests on python-dev as are currently done. You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Antoine Pitrou writes: You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce bugs in released software, which improves user perception of stability,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le jeudi 19 janvier 2012 à 00:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce bugs in released

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Senthil Kumaran
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:26:19PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: My original suggestion to Antoine and Georg for 3.4 was that we simply propose to Larry Hastings (the 3.4 RM) that we spread out the release cycle, releasing the first alpha after ~6 months, the second after about ~12, then rolling

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Dirkjan Ochtman
On Tuesday, January 17, 2012, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people involved in the release process, and maintainers from third-party distributions of Python. As a

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Hello Dirkjan, On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:32:22 +0100 Dirkjan Ochtman dirk...@ochtman.nl wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2012, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 18.01.2012 16:25, schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull: Antoine Pitrou writes: You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce bugs in released

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Steven D'Aprano
Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le jeudi 19 janvier 2012 à 00:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Matt Joiner
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: The main reason is changes in the library.  We have been getting complaints about the standard library bitrotting for years now, and one of the main reasons it's so hard to a) get decent code into the stdlib and b) keep it

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Georg Brandl writes: The status quo really isn't all that bad applies to any PEP. Also, compared to most PEPs, it is quite easy to revert to the previous state of things if they don't work out as wanted. That depends on how doesn't work out plays out. If meeting the schedule *and*

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-18 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Steven D'Aprano writes: Pardon me, but people like Stephen Turnbull are *users* of Python, exactly the sort of people you DO have to convince that moving to an accelerated or more complex release process will result in a better product. Well, to be fair, Antoine is right in excluding

[Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Hello, We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people involved in the release process, and maintainers from third-party distributions of Python. Regards Antoine. PEP: 407 Title: New release cycle and introducing

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Eric Snow
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: Under the proposed scheme, there would be two kinds of feature versions (sometimes dubbed minor versions, for example 3.2 or 3.3): normal feature versions and long-term support (LTS) versions. ... A new feature version

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Matt Joiner
If minor/feature releases are introducing breaking changes perhaps it's time to adopt accelerated major versioning schedule. For instance there are breaking ABI changes between 3.0/3.1, and 3.2, and while acceptable for the early adoption state of Python 3, such changes should normally be reserved

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Hello, On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:04:19 +1100 Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote: If minor/feature releases are introducing breaking changes perhaps it's time to adopt accelerated major versioning schedule. The PEP doesn't propose to accelerate compatibility breakage. So I don't think a change

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 1/17/2012 3:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Hello, We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people involved in the release process, and maintainers from third-party distributions of Python. Regards Antoine. PEP:

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:29:11 -0500 Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: To me, as I understand the proposal, the title is wrong. Our current feather releases already are long-term support versions. They get bugfix releases at close to 6 month intervals for 1 1/2 -2 years and security fixes

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Ezio Melotti
Hi, On 17/01/2012 22.34, Antoine Pitrou wrote: [...] Proposal Under the proposed scheme, there would be two kinds of feature versions (sometimes dubbed minor versions, for example 3.2 or 3.3): normal feature versions and long-term support (LTS) versions. Normal feature versions

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Jeff Hardy
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com wrote: * What is the effect on PyPy/Jython/IronPython?  Can they just skip the feature releases and focus on the LTS ones? At least for IronPython it's unlikely we'd be able track the feature releases. We're still trying to

[Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Executive summary: My take is show us the additional resources, and don't be stingy! Sorry, Antoine, I agree with your goals, but I think you are too optimistic about the positive effects and way too optimistic about the costs. Antoine Pitrou writes: Finding a release cycle for an open-source

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 1/17/2012 6:42 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:29:11 -0500 Terry Reedytjre...@udel.edu wrote: To me, as I understand the proposal, the title is wrong. Our current feather releases already are long-term support versions. They get bugfix releases at close to 6 month

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 18.01.2012 05:32, schrieb Terry Reedy: On 1/17/2012 6:42 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:29:11 -0500 Terry Reedytjre...@udel.edu wrote: To me, as I understand the proposal, the title is wrong. Our current feather releases already are long-term support versions. They get

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Paul Moore
On 18 January 2012 04:32, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: It's really about making feature releases more frequent, not making previews available during development. Given the difficulty of making a complete windows build, it would be nice to have one made available every 6 months,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 18.01.2012 01:24, schrieb Jeff Hardy: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com wrote: * What is the effect on PyPy/Jython/IronPython? Can they just skip the feature releases and focus on the LTS ones? At least for IronPython it's unlikely we'd be able track

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Paul Moore
On 18 January 2012 07:46, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: But I am dubious that releases that are obsolete in 6 months and lack 3rd party support will see much production use. Whether people would use the releases is probably something that only they can tell us -- that's why a community

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

2012-01-17 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 18.01.2012 00:50, schrieb Ezio Melotti: Hi, On 17/01/2012 22.34, Antoine Pitrou wrote: [...] Proposal Under the proposed scheme, there would be two kinds of feature versions (sometimes dubbed minor versions, for example 3.2 or 3.3): normal feature versions and long-term