details why.
Erik
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On 26/10/2021 02:56, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 01:32:58AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
Syntax bikeshedding: I still favour
var := expr
That clashes with the walrus operator. Remember that the walrus operator
can appear inside the expression:
On 26/10/2021 02:56, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 01:32:58AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
Syntax bikeshedding: I still favour
var := expr
That clashes with the walrus operator. Remember that the walrus operator
can appear inside the expression:
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llows late default values to refer
to subsequent early default values, e.g. in the example above
`latedefault2' could refer to `c`. So yes, then that code would be
legal on some interpreters and not others, as you said. If you
understood exactly what I meant, I apologise.
Rob Cliffe
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7;s for
another day.
ChrisA
Indeed. And it could be useful to know if a parameter was passed a
value or given the default value.
Python has very comprehensive introspection abilities, but this is a
(small) gap.
Rob Cliffe
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t would be the point of writing it if
it didn't?
Rob Cliffe
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fend it TO THE DEATH! Of course, what it should REALLY have are
all MY favorite features, including some that haven't been added yet.😁
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g then.
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not a core dev, although someone recently credited me using that descriptor
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r to more featureful deferred object, certainly not
closing it.
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On 31/10/2021 08:05, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 08:59:51AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
And I don't understand what point you're making here. Yes, the walrus
operator can appear in various places, how is that relevant? You could write
def
as we
already have with early-bound defaults.
It's easy to argue against a feature by showing that it can be abused.
+1. The same argument (Brendan's) could be used against having e.g.
list comprehensions.
Rob Cliffe
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(When do we
want it? Now!)
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
[snip]
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On 31/10/2021 21:54, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:39 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
PEP 671 will be USEFUL to Python programmers. We want it! (When
do we want it? Now!)
This feels dishonest. I believe I qualify as a Python programmer. I
started using Python
ing and other research project.
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he defining function. I suppose it would
have to be solved in the same way, by making that function a closure.
So the difference is whether the closure is in the default itself, or
in the function where the default is defined. But the basic issue,
and its solution, is the same. That might be "un
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of parallel computing.
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?
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there is).
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e to write this sort of thing:
global TestsRun = 0, ElapsedTime = 0.0
but it's not a big deal.
Rob
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= 0:
return 0
return n+ ppe.submit(hello, n-1).result()
future = ppe.submit(hello, 1)
print(future.result())
```
It will never stuck and never ended.
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slations-sphinx.html
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s" written all
over it. YMMV.
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h
erator.)
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and it is safe to use it as a sentinel.
There are also circumstances when you start off thinking that None will
never be a valid argument value, but later you have to cater for it.
Now it does start to look as if you used a hack.
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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o access it as a
first-class value.
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s *is* a virtue, even if it is often trumped by other
considerations.
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o hear, also, from anyone's friends/family who know a bit of
Python but haven't been involved in this discussion. If late-bound
defaults "just make sense" to people, that would be highly
informative.
Any and all comments welcomed. I mean, this is python-ideas after
all...
quot;copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> def f(x=...):
... try: print("You passed x as", x)
... except UnboundLocalError: print("You didn't pass x")
...
>>> f()
You passed x as Ellipsis
So I must agree wi
ould return
something like, respectively,
"LateBound('[]')"
"[]"
I am sure there is code that uses inspect.signature that would be
broken, but isn't that inevitable anyway?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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On 03/12/2021 22:38, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 8:18 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 19:32, Adam Johnson wrote:
The first unwelcome surprise was:
>>> def func(a=>[]):
... return a
...
>&g
On 04/12/2021 01:06, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 11:59 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 22:38, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 8:18 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 19:32, Adam Johnson wrote:
The first unwelcome
hey not support defaults.
In the case of Perl, functions do not have declared arguments at all,
the function manually unpacks whatever arguments it requires from the
special global variable `@_`.
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shes
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it).
- Not just saving two lines but IMO adding simplicity and clarity
But no matter.
If this were always a compelling argument, Python would *never* be changed.
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To
Aprano surveyed provide
it. YMMV.
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
PEP 671 is very much the same. It does something worthwhile. But it
does vastly less than needed to warrant new syntax and semantics. I
hope it takes less than 19 years, but a generalized deferred construct
is worth waiting for.
On 06/12/2021 09:44, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas writes:
> Nobody has attempted (or at least completed) a PEP, never mind an
> implementation, of a "generalized deferred object/type", in the last N
> years or decades.
Haskell anything. R
of that cost. If your language supports static
storage for functions, you can use that. But in general, without come
sort of language support, simulating early binding in a language which
only provides late binding is not as easy, convenient or efficient as
doing it the other way.
_____
On 06/12/2021 23:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 10:17:06AM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
If your language only has one, early binding is better.
That's your opinion. It's not mine. Witness the Stack Overflow
questions asking why `def f(ar
On 07/12/2021 18:22, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas writes:
> I think you're making my point.
*shrug* You wrote "object", I took you at your word.
> You're saying that the object part isn't that hard, but other parts of
> it
.
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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/2021 22:40, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 2:58 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
On 08/12/2021 19:27, Paul Moore wrote:
> The reason deferred objects keep coming up is because they *do*
have a much more compelling benefit - they help in a much broader
range of ca
On 08/12/2021 23:09, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 5:55 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
But AIUI (i.e. practically not at all) Dask is about parallel
computing, which is not the same thing as deferred evaluation,
though doubtless they overlap. Again AIUI, parallel
meaningless "=", you get "=[]".'
'Some of them are. Some of them are not. When they are meaningful, PEP
671 does not apply, because they're not the sort of sentinel I'm talking
about.
Unfortunately, the word "sentinel" means many different things. Th
tions to the function body, because the function body is
arbitrary code that can do anything. The different between "an
argument default" and "stuff that the function does as part of its
behavior" is that the argument default is segmented out and has its
own independent existence
ike this before? I feel I must have missed
something important.
Thanks,
David
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Message ar
s not Chris A's job to try to
clarify what *he thinks they mean*, which is what you appear to be
saying (if not, what *are* you saying by "channel others' thinking"?).
Best wishes
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Yeah, I think that ship has sailed. Double punctuation just isn't
Python's thing, so there aren't really any good ways to shoehorn more
data types into fewer symbols.
ChrisA
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To
already say
a = frozenset({i+1 for i in range(3)})
which is not too bad.
On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 14:14, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
How about
fs{1, 2, 3}
?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
On 16/01/2022 12:41, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11
On 17/01/2022 00:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:11:13PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
How about
fs{1, 2, 3}
What does the "s" add that the set {1, 2, 3} doesn't already tell us?
It helps to distinguish it from
f(1, 2, 3)
f
is executed. Frozenset itself is not
faster than a regular set.
Ronald
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t is a container of things, too). These differences make
is a lot easier to choose, ahead of time, which one makes sense before
you have even written the line of code.
Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I really like the idea of
deciding at the END of the set literal whether to
liffe
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you have a nice syntax that clearly creates a frozenset
directly and that can be used for repr.
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t time)
Dic = {} # format fruit:count
For fruit in fruits:
Dic[fruit]:= 0
Dic[fruit]+=1
Would be great to hear your feedback. Thanks.
Moj
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roblems that "action at a distance"
> effects, like monkeypatching class definitions, can cause in a code
> base.
>
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don't see any real advantage here
other than the non-advantage of being able to write one-liners.
Paul
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t given how
open() works and that it looks similar superficially.
Cheers,
Thomas
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e reading from generators. But that wouldn't be helpful, obviously.
It is also possible to fix the particular issue by using another with
statement, that is use:
with contextlib.closing(read_multiple(…)) as chunks:
for contents in chunks:
…
Automatically closing the generator at t
io/PythonCertDevel/index.html
Which we use for a "Certificate" program, which is NOT a "certification".
But I like to think we've put together a pretty good curriculum.
I hope this is enough to persuade you that this topic is appropriate
> for python-ideas. Of cour
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...:
In [32]: test_locals()
locals passed in: {'b': 2, 'a': 1}
locals after adding {'b': 2, 'a': 1, 'fred': 5}
{'b': 2, 'a': 1, 'fred': 5}
fred: 5
It seems you CAN modify the locals dict passed in, and the change will show
up in the enclosing scope.
But it sounds like that is not guaranteed by the language.
-CHB
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ton_color=sg.COLOR_SYSTEM_DEFAULT)
>>
>
> OK. Personally, I'd argue quite strongly that "match the OS default" is
> the right default for a GUI library, but that's a hugely subjective area,
> and you're never going to please everyone. So do whatever works fo
on
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, attr_m):
>>>>> 'Create new instance of {typename} ({arg_list})'
>>>>> return memoryslots .__ new __ (cls, attr_1, ..., attr_m)
>>>>> `` `
>>>>> etc. following the `namedtuple` definition scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>> As
s
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ever participate in any
other type of discussion forum regularly.
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> >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
> > >
> > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the
> > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the
> > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PE
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote:
> One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to
> read on Python-ideas.
>
You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't the
volume, but the nature and timing of the discussi
her
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ht get PHP users confused; that's really not
>> an issue, though, since Python is not PHP.
>>
>> Anyway, I fully support this idea.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Ken Hilton;
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ject could be used (which
one used would be documented). Because there would be too much for Python
to "decide" for how iNaNs would work, it should be left up to user code.
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2
f(**{"a+1":2})
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "python", line 1, in
TypeError: f() got an unexpected keyword argument 'a+1'
Does CPython count as "other python implementation"?
Wolfram
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should not be
dismissed.
Wolfram
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gt;
> --
>
> Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
> Oceanographer
>
> Emergency Response Division
> NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice
> 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax
> Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception
>
> chris.bar...@n
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:34:13PM -0700, Chris Barker via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> > I don't care what is or isn't a subclass of what -- I don't think that's
> a
> > Pythonic questio
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