Re: Question(s)

On 25/10/23 2:32 pm, Chris Angelico wrote: Error correcting memory, redundant systems, and human monitoring, plus the ability to rewrite the guidance software on the fly if they needed to. Although the latter couldn't actually be done with the AGC, as the software was in ROM. They could poke va

Re: Question(s)

On Behalf Of Thomas Passin via Python-list Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 6:50 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Question(s) On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message here, it is that there are

RE: Question(s)

: Thursday, October 26, 2023 6:50 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Question(s) On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: > I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that support your

Re: Question(s)

On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that support your use of python during the development phase and perhaps later. I actually often use an

RE: Question(s)

. -Original Message- From: Python-list On Behalf Of o1bigtenor via Python-list Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 8:34 AM To: Michael Torrie Cc: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Question(s) On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote: > > On 10/25/23

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-26, o1bigtenor wrote: > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list > wrote: >> >> On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: >> > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!) >> > Any suggestions? >> >> Seems to me you're trying to run before you

Re: Question(s)

On 10/26/2023 4:25 PM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote: On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote: Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue! When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way

Re: Question(s)

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:47 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote: > > On 10/26/23 10:41, Michael Torrie wrote: > > By the way you definitely can step > > through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say > > with Visual Studio Code. > > I meant to edit that bit out. Af

Re: Question(s)

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote: > > On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote: > > Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue! > > When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way to > > check that the code is working until one ha

Re: Question(s)

On 10/26/23 10:41, Michael Torrie wrote: > By the way you definitely can step > through MicroPython code one line at a time with a remote debugger, say > with Visual Studio Code. I meant to edit that bit out. After doing a bit more research, it appears remote debugging with MicroPython may not b

Re: Question(s)

On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote: > Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue! > When the code is accessing sensors there isn't an easy way to > check that the code is working until one has done the all of the > physical construction. If I'm trying to control a pulsatio

Re: Question(s)

On 10/26/2023 7:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500: ... It would appear that something has changed. Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512). Expanded softw

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:56 PM Jim Schwartz wrote: > Does this link help? It seems to have a Linux package here. > > Eclipse Packages | The Eclipse Foundation - home to a global community, > the Eclipse IDE, Jakarta EE and over 350 open source projects... >

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 11:58 AM Michael F. Stemper via Python-list wrote: > > On 25/10/2023 05.45, o1bigtenor wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list > > wrote: > > >> 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for > >> this. > > > >

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote: > > On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!) > > Any suggestions? > > Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk. > > Slow down, go to

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500: > > ... > >It would appear that something has changed. > > > >Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512). > >Expanded software to # opt . > >There is absolutely NO m

RE: Question(s)

python.org Subject: Re: Question(s) On 24/10/2023 18.15, o1bigtenor wrote: > What is interesting about this is the absolute certainty that it is impossible > to program so that that program is provably correct. Not entirely true. If I was to write a program to calculate Fibonacci numbe

Re: Question(s)

Does this link help? It seems to have a Linux package here. [1]Eclipse Packages | The Eclipse Foundation - home to a global community, the Eclipse IDE, Jakarta EE and [2]favicon.ico over 350 open source projects... eclipse.org Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2023

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor wrote: > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: >> [...] >> There are several others, >> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development. > > Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE? > (Having a hard time finding linux related information on the > website.)

Re: Question(s)

On 10/25/2023 9:20 AM, Michael F. Stemper via Python-list wrote: On 24/10/2023 17.50, Thomas Passin wrote:    The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which,> if you would write your requirements in a certain way, could generate correct C code for them. Since the l

Re: Question(s)

On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500: On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote: ... There are different kinds of errors. Some can be avoided by using an integrated

Re: Question(s)

On 25/10/2023 12:44, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - - There are literally dozens with varying degrees of smartness. The big 4 all have Python plugins/environments: Eclipse, Netbeans, VisualStudio, IntelliJ And of cours

Re: Question(s)

On 25/10/2023 05.45, o1bigtenor wrote: On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote: 3. Catch the failure before you commit and push. Unit tests are great for this. Where might I find such please. You don't "find" unit tests; you write them. A unit test tests a spe

RE: Question(s)

org Subject: Re: Question(s) On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: > > Agreed, Chris. There are many methods way better than the sort of RAID > architecture I supplied as AN EXAMPLE easy to understand. But even so, if a > hard disk or memory chip is fried or a nuclear

Re: Question(s)

On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!) > Any suggestions? Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk. Slow down, go to the beginning and just learn python, write some code, see if it runs. Go through the

Re: Question(s)

On 24/10/2023 18.15, o1bigtenor wrote: What is interesting about this is the absolute certainty that it is impossible to program so that that program is provably correct. Not entirely true. If I was to write a program to calculate Fibonacci numbers, or echo back user input, that program could

Re: Question(s)

On 24/10/2023 17.50, Thomas Passin wrote: The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which,> if you would write your requirements in a certain way, could generate correct C code for them. Since the last Apollo mission was in 1972, when C was first being developed,

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote: > On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:28 PM Rob Cliffe wrote: >> >> There is no general way to prove that a program is "correct". Or even >> whether it will terminate or loop endlessly. >> [...] >> When you come to run your program "for real", and you have to >> troubleshoo

Re: Question(s)

o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500: > ... >It would appear that something has changed. > >Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512). >Expanded software to # opt . >There is absolutely NO mention of anything python - - - java, c and >its permutations, >'scien

Re: Question(s)

On 10/25/2023 9:21 AM, Thomas Passin wrote: On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500: On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote: ... There are different kinds of error

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - - > just that I haven't heard of such. Is there a python IDE? Seriously? Now you're just trolling. google.com/search?q=python+ide&oq=python+ide -- Grant -- https://mail

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:56 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500: > >> There are several others, > >> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development. > > > >Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE? > > No. > ==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)"

Re: Question(s)

o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500: >> There are several others, >> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development. > >Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE? No. ==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)" -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500: > >On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > ... > >> There are different kinds of errors. > >> > >> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment > >> (e.g. mi

Re: Question(s)

o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500: >On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > ... >> There are different kinds of errors. >> >> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment >> (e.g. misspellings, type mismatches, ...). > >Haven't heard of a python IDE -

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:20 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor wrote: > > > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help > > > you to spot bugs. > > > > Tools like this for python please. > > Various ones. Type checkers

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 22:46, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500: > > > ... > > >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is > > >supposed to do even > > >before all th

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer wrote: > > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500: > > ... > >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is > >supposed to do even > >before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested? > > Others have already n

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:25 AM Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:53, o1bigtenor wrote: > > > > Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes' > > and a raid array? > > > > TIA > > Normally you wouldn't. But let's say you're worried that a file might >

Re: Question(s)

o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500: > ... >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is >supposed to do even >before all the hardware has been assembled and installed and tested? Others have already noted that "verify" is a very strong aim. There are different kinds o

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:53, o1bigtenor wrote: > > Hmm - - - - now how can I combine 'Hamming codes' > and a raid array? > > TIA Normally you wouldn't. But let's say you're worried that a file might get randomly damaged. (I don't think single-bit errors are really a significant issue wit

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor wrote: > > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help > > you to spot bugs. > > Tools like this for python please. Various ones. Type checkers like MyPy fall into this category if you set your system up to run them when you save

Re: Question(s)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:36 PM AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: > > Agreed, Chris. There are many methods way better than the sort of RAID > architecture I supplied as AN EXAMPLE easy to understand. But even so, if a > hard disk or memory chip is fried or a nuclear bomb takes out all servers in >

Re: Question(s)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:43 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list > wrote: > > Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a > > location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and >

Re: Question(s)

A post with useful ideas - - - - thanks (it generates some questions! interleaved) On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 8:35 PM Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list > wrote: > > This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor

Re: Question(s)

On 10/24/2023 7:37 PM, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote: On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system whic

RE: Question(s)

, 2023 9:41 PM To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Question(s) On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: > Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and sometimes get the wr

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote: > Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a > location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and > sometimes get the wrong result. To be really cautions, you might need your > so

Re: Question(s)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: > This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor that > no program can never be proven correct by formal means. Will your > program be one of those? The answer may never come ... Indeed, and I would go further

RE: Question(s)

rg Subject: Re: Question(s) On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: > snip > > By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot > prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware > question. Even if it c

Re: Question(s)

On 10/24/2023 7:15 PM, o1bigtenor wrote: On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: snip By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware question. Even if it could be don

Re: Question(s)

On 25/10/2023 00:08, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > So how does one test software then? Testing is very different to proving! As an industry we do a lot of testing at many different levels. On bigger projects you'll find: - Unit tests - testing small fragments of a bigger program - Integrati

Re: Question(s)

On 24/10/2023 22:51, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote: >>> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is >>> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and >>> installed and tested? > And the specified customer requirements are usually wrong too. Sure, >

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > So how does one test software then? That's what customers are for! [Actually, that's true more often than it should be.] -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: > Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an > arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team > for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which, if you would > write your requirements in a certain wa

Re: Question(s)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote: > snip > > By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot > prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware > question. Even if it could be done, the kind of specification that you

Re: Question(s)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:28 PM Rob Cliffe wrote: > > There is no general way to prove that a program is "correct". Or even > whether it will terminate or loop endlessly. > These are of course theoretical statements of computer science. But > they can be rigorously proven. (Sorry if I'm just sa

Re: Question(s)

On 10/24/2023 8:22 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: Greetings (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for a complex question.) I have been using computers for a long time but am only beginning my foray into the galaxy of programming. Have done little to this point

Re: Question(s)

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:54 PM Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote: > > On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list wrote: > > On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote: > >> Greetings > >> > >> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for > >> a complex question.) > >> [...] > >>

Re: Question(s)

> On 24 Oct 2023, at 18:25, o1bigtenor via Python-list > wrote: > > Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is > supposed to do In the general case not proven to be not possible. Have a read about the halting problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem It i

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list wrote: > On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote: >> Greetings >> >> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for >> a complex question.) >> [...] >> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is >> supposed to do even

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for > a complex question.) > [...] > Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is > supposed to do even > before all the hardware has been assembled and installed

Re: Question(s)

On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote: > Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is > supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and > installed and tested? It depends on what you mean by "verify ...". If you want to prove a program correct (

Re: Question(s)

I don’t think there i a simple answer to this, although if you find something interesting, please share. From my experience, industry is applying variety of testing methods. Starting from lowest level components and implementing unit tests, finishing with end-to-end testing platforms. https://