Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Steven M. Christey
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Crispin Cowan wrote: > Since many users are economically motivated, this may explain why users > don't care much about security :) But... but... but... I understand the sentiment, but there's something missing in it. Namely, that the costs related to security are not reall

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread John Steven
Andrew, James, Agreed, Microsoft has put some interesting thoughts out in their SDL book. Companies that produce a software product will find a lot of this approach resonates well. IT shops supporting financial houses will have more difficulty. McGraw wrote a decent blog entry on this top

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Crispin Cowan
Ed Reed wrote: > Crispin Cowan wrote: > >> Crispin, now believes that users are fundamentally what holds back security >> >> > I was once berated on stage by Jamie Lewis for sounding like I was > placing the blame for poor security on customers themselves. > Fight back harder. Jamie i

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread Andrew van der Stock
In terms of creating a SDLC, pop out to Borders and get Howard and Lipner¹s ³The Security Development Lifecycle² ISBN 9780735622142 http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/8753.aspx It is simply the best text I¹ve read in a long time. You may be interested in the work Mark Curphey et al is doing

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Ed Reed
Crispin Cowan wrote: > Crispin, now believes that users are fundamentally what holds back security > > I was once berated on stage by Jamie Lewis for sounding like I was placing the blame for poor security on customers themselves. I have moved on, and believe, instead, that it is the economic i

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Crispin Cowan
Gary McGraw wrote: > Very interesting. Crispin is in the throes of big software. Anybody want to > help me mount a rescue campaign from jamaica? > It is the art of managing upwards. To get my boss to do what I want him to do, I have to encourage him, I can't just tell him. And his boss. And h

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Crispin Cowan
Gary McGraw wrote: > I'm not sure vista is bombing because of good quality. That certainly would > be ironic. > > Word on the "way down in the guts" street is that vista is too many things > cobbled together into one big kinda functioning mess. I.e. it is mis-featured, and lacks on some inte

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
I agree with your assessment of how things are sold at a high-level but still struggling in that it takes more than just graphicalizing of your points to sell, hence I am still attempting to figure out a way to get my hands on some PPT that are used internal to enterprises prior to consulting en

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Gary McGraw
Very interesting. Crispin is in the throes of big software. Anybody want to help me mount a rescue campaign from jamaica? gem company www.cigital.com podcast www.cigital.com/silverbullet blog www.cigital.com/justiceleague book www.swsec.com -Original Message- From: Crispin Cowan [

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread Andrew van der Stock
There are two major methods: 1. Opportunity cost / competitive advantage (the Microsoft model) 2. Recovery cost reductions (the model used by most financial institutions) Generally, opportunity cost is where an organization can further its goals by a secure business foundation. This requires the

[SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
I am attempting to figure out how other Fortune enterprises have went about selling the need for secure coding practices and can't seem to find the answer I seek. Essentially, I have discovered that one of a few scenarios exist (a) the leadership chain was highly technical and intuitively unders