Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

Bob Eager wrote: > How many people have read this book? (I have it) I own it, but have never studied it. > It's about the design of an early BLISS compiler. BLISS-11 > http://amzn.eu/irCsXhi ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:55:48 +0100 Johnny Billquist wrote: > Heh. I've had similar experiences with BLISS-16. I've learned a trick > or two looking at the code generated, and it can do some rather neat > tricks. Definitely impressive code generated. Not seen that level > from

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 4:59 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2018-01-26 22:49, Timothe Litt wrote: >> ... >> There also was the argument that you really couldn't (well, shouldn't) write >> pure assembler for Alpha because the best scheduling depends on the >> implementation

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 2018-01-26 22:49, Timothe Litt wrote: On 26-Jan-18 14:45, Paul Koning wrote: ent.​ I also do not know what they are doing with the front-ends. One of the more curious front ends of GEM is the Alpha assembler. I found out about that when doing some Alpha hand-optimizing early on (a

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 2018-01-26 22:49, Hunter Goatley wrote: On 1/26/2018 3:28 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: Sounds right.  The -16 and -36 versions stayed with the native backend and didn't get much attention once GEM took off.  At least, I don't recall GEM support for them. I believe that's correct. So, no GEM

Re: [Simh] BLISS

SOAP was the assembler for the IBM 650. —Howard Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 26, 2018, at 16:25, Larry Baker wrote: > > Was SOAP Knuth's assembler that optimized placement of the machine code on > the drum memory to minimize access latency for the next instruction? > > Larry

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 26-Jan-18 14:45, Paul Koning wrote: > ent.​ I also do not know what they are doing with the front-ends. > One of the more curious front ends of GEM is the Alpha assembler. I found > out about that when doing some Alpha hand-optimizing early on (a handcoded > "memcpy with TCP checksum

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 1/26/2018 3:28 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: Sounds right.  The -16 and -36 versions stayed with the native backend and didn't get much attention once GEM took off.  At least, I don't recall GEM support for them. I believe that's correct. Alpha pretty much repeated the VAX route (plus the

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

below.. at bit off topic from simulators sorry On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Hunter Goatley wrote: > On 1/26/2018 2:22 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: > >> >> BLISS would have done better in the outside world, except for the >> DECision to price it higher than the market

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 26-Jan-18 14:09, Clem Cole wrote: > > > The other thing to add is there were at least two generations of the > compilers within DEC that I knew about.  Yes.  > Tim you may have know of a third when I was off doing other things.   > The last (current) is the 'Gem' compilers which was a rewrite

Re: [Simh] BLISS

Was SOAP Knuth's assembler that optimized placement of the machine code on the drum memory to minimize access latency for the next instruction? Larry Baker US Geological Survey 650-329-5608 ba...@usgs.gov > On 26 Jan 2018, at 12:35:20 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > The only

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On 26-Jan-18 15:54, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 14:35:18 -0600 >> From: Hunter Goatley >> On 1/26/2018 2:22 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: >>> BLISS would have done better in the outside world, except for the >>> DECision to price it higher than the market

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 14:35:18 -0600 > From: Hunter Goatley > On 1/26/2018 2:22 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: >> BLISS would have done better in the outside world, except for the >> DECision to price it higher than the market would bear. > Indeed! I was fortunate to get

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On 1/26/2018 2:22 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: BLISS would have done better in the outside world, except for the DECision to price it higher than the market would bear. Indeed! I was fortunate to get access to BLISS in college thanks to DEC's CSLG program, but it was their second-most expensive

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On 26-Jan-18 15:12, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2018-01-26 20:26, Clem Cole wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist > > wrote: >> >> >>     Right. As far as I know, BLISS-16 only ran under VMS. >> >> Hmm I'd be careful here.  

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 2018-01-26 20:38, Clem Cole wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: I don't think BLISS-16 ran on PDP-10, but I could be wrong. I've never seen or heard anything about BLISS-16 running on Alpha or beyond. ​Gem

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On 2018-01-26 20:26, Clem Cole wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: Right. As far as I know, BLISS-16 only ran under VMS. Hmm I'd be careful here.   As I understand it,​ Hobbs has implied they did the work on the

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 2:38 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > ... > ​VMSinc had the Gem compiler as part of their license. As I say, they have > Neil hacking on it again. But I believe that he is only worried about > Itanium and INTEL*64 at the moment.​ I also do not know what they

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > I don't think BLISS-16 ran on PDP-10, but I could be wrong. I've never > seen or heard anything about BLISS-16 running on Alpha or beyond. ​Gem did exactly that conceptually.​ > I guess it could be possible to do,

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Right. As far as I know, BLISS-16 only ran under VMS. Hmm I'd be careful here. As I understand it,​ Hobbs has implied they did the work on the 10 to start with because at the time TLG was using PDP-10s. As one of

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 2018-01-26 18:48, Timothe Litt wrote: BLISS-36,-16,-32,-32E,-64E, MIPS, INTEL, IA64, are DEC's common BLISS - evolved (and greatly extended) from BLISS-11, but not (really) source-compatible for non-trivial programs.  "common" means that (with carefully defined exceptions that can be

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: > I wrote a fair bit of BLISS at various stages of its evolution. My > recollection is: > > BLISS-10 & BLISS-11 came from Wulf & Co at CMU. BLISS-10 is self-hosted > ​Right - Wulf, Steve Hobbs et al, FWIW: I just had lunch

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

On 2018-01-26 18:08, Phil Budne wrote: Paul Koning wrote: As for BLISS, there's BLISS-16 and BLISS-11. One came from Carnegie-Mellon; the other was built at DEC. Both are cross-compilers, but I don't remember which platform. PDP-10 for both? 10 for one and VAX for the other? BLISS-11

Re: [Simh] BLISS ( was Re: 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access))

On 26-Jan-18 11:37, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Clem Cole wrote: >> >> ... >> RSTS Basic is a late entry, the language support for it, originally came >> from the compiler group which again was originally PDP-10 based (also >> remember the PDP-11 BLISS

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: >> As for BLISS, there's BLISS-16 and BLISS-11. One came from Carnegie-Mellon; >> the other was built at DEC. Both are cross-compilers, but I don't remember >> which platform. PDP-10 for both? 10

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

Bliss-11 was for the pdp10. Bliss-16 was for VMS. I believe it Bliss-11 that came from CMU. Johnny Paul Koning skrev: (26 januari 2018 17:37:28 CET) > > >> On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Clem Cole wrote: >> >> ... >> RSTS Basic is a late entry, the

Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

Heh. As a reference. I'm running an RSX system on simh with four 8G disks. No point in being cheap here. Johnny Zane Healy skrev: (26 januari 2018 16:53:11 CET) >Yes, I’m trying to preserve the data on hard drive from future hardware >failures. > >I started out

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

Paul Koning wrote: > As for BLISS, there's BLISS-16 and BLISS-11. One came from Carnegie-Mellon; > the other was built at DEC. Both are cross-compilers, but I don't remember > which platform. PDP-10 for both? 10 for one and VAX for the other? BLISS-11 was written in BLISS-10 (and both were

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

> On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > ... > RSTS Basic is a late entry, the language support for it, originally came from > the compiler group which again was originally PDP-10 based (also remember the > PDP-11 BLISS compiler needed a 10 to run it). Are you

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

> On Jan 25, 2018, at 7:23 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2018-01-26 01:03, Tony Nicholson wrote: >> Definitely BASIC-Plus on RSTS! You may need to replace the “&” with “PRINT” >> in some of the files. > > Which should tell you that it's not for BASIC+ on RSTS/E. :-) >

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

> On Jan 25, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Cool. Thanks. Downloaded and unpacket. > Anyone interested and on HECnet can now find them on MIM::DU:[101GAMES] > > Looked a little at one or two files. BASIC+2 do not like them. The code uses > special shorts,

Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

Yes, I’m trying to preserve the data on hard drive from future hardware failures. I started out looking to backup to virtual tape. I’m still looking to do that, but I’m now mainly looking to move the majority of the data off of the Physical Alpha, and to a Virtual VAX. I hadn’t realized how

Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

That sounds right. Incidentally, I'm not sure how well known this is, but RSTS (with the "new BACKUP" introduced in V9.0) uses the VMS backup set format. That means you can use backup sets to interchange between the two, with some care because of the differences in file naming. paul

Re: [Simh] Terminal Emulator

Another good terminal emulator was WRQ's Reflection 2. Of course, it was not freeware/shareware, but it ran well, and had its own file transfer protocol built in. For VAX/VMS hosts, once you uploaded a minimalist bootstrap program (a simple copy-paste operation of a DCL script that embedded

Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

Then I must have misunderstood the usecase. I thought you were looking at preserving a bunch of tapes from a future failure of the hardware. Are you then looking at ways to perform backups of a physical system to virtual tape? I would probably give the virtual machine a really big disk and run

Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

It's not really a bug. It's a limitation. A bit unfortunate, but a design choice made by the proframmer who wrote the firmware. Johnny khandy21yo skrev: (26 januari 2018 03:35:24 CET) >The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a 1.06? >Disk. I

Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

That is not solving the sctual problem. And it's also unrelated to the 24 bit size for block numbers in VMS. The boot issue is specific to some 3100 models and has to do with the scsi commands the boot prom uses. The driver in the boot prom uses group 0 commands, which only have a 21 bit field

Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 168, Issue 38

I know I've hacked larger SCSI disks in the past, for the 3100. I made them report a smaller size so that they would boot. On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:35:24 -0700 khandy21yo wrote: > The MicroVAX 3100 had a bug in the boot Rom that limited it to a > 1.06? Disk. I don't know if