Re: Tubing and fittings

In a message dated 10/31/2000 3:07:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Hey, your tubing and fittings need complete rest! Take Walt's advice! Even now, with mine in February, I still feel it when I lift things heavy. Of course, I don't know how to take it easy. I have bee

Re: Gas Jet thread size

I think Roundhouse are 1BA Bob

Re: VIP's

In a message dated 10/17/2000 11:00:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Bob-- Re Cricket--Is it the screen that gets clogged with oil--or does the > actual jet clog? Yes, it is the butane jet that clogs up on me a lot. Then, I hate take that damnable tiny thing out to cl

Re: VIP's

A very modified Cricket. Good runners but the jet seems to clog a lot. http://www.geocities.com/cgnr.geo/ck1.jpg Bob

Re: roundhouse boiler

In a message dated 10/5/2000 8:54:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > << or ceramic butane burner. >> Bob Paule at Sulphur Springs has it too. here is the one I just built, not difficult to do. http://www.geocities.com/cgnr.geo/crk.jpg

Re: Employment Opportunity

In a message dated 10/2/2000 7:22:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Steve as far as your comment on the electrified track thing, I recall where > a model steam loco was run by heating coils where the current was picked up > from the track. Anyone back me up on this, or a

Re: My 'Belle.

In a message dated 9/19/2000 3:55:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I've never personally seen a "Liberty Belle" I saw Tony's run for the first time on my portable track in San Diego and I can say that it ran flawlessly. It is a beautiful locomotive and I hope to hear

Re: Gordon's Sloppy Coat Tails

My dogs, who are both dead now, knew when earthquakes were going to hit. Sometimes many hours before they happened. They went crazy when the Big Bear quake hit 25 miles from my house. (So did I, I was in my workshop.) On another note Jackie and I spent the day designing the new track

Re: Cat's away ...

What is a Vacation? Bob

Re: Propane Tanks

In a message dated 9/11/2000 4:31:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I would not think that square steel tubing is pressure > rated at all. We could say this about any of the materials that we are using for all of our pressure vessels. I am using heavy wall square thou

Re: Propane Tanks

In a message dated 9/10/2000 2:57:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I doubt can you weld mig on a workpiece 3 inches > long? I can gas weld it though, with very small tight bead. Bob

Re: Propane/Butane Tanks.

Hi Gordon, Glad that you entered this thread. You make a valid point about flux residue and I would suppose that holds true for any kind of tank though. It is one of the reasons that I considered welding the tank together. What is your consensus of a welded tank? I really consider that most

Re: Butane tank

In a message dated 9/8/2000 8:21:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Now where can I > get some. I suppose I will make them myself. I have had no trouble using the jets from Sulphur Springs, especially the RH ones. The jet holes are too finicky for me to bother with. Ch

Re: Butane tank

In a message dated 9/6/2000 2:00:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Also no visible corrosion after a year or two > - I know 'cos I cut one open. Thanks Art, that was what I needed to know. The reason that I want a square tank is because I am building this as a bunker

Butane tank

Hi folks, What detriments if any would there be to building a tank out of square steel tubing? I have no problem with the welding part, just was wondering about the feasibility. Bob

Re: Congrats Vance!

I agree, Vance definitely deserves an "atta-boy". Will certainly be looking forward to the free subscription I just won at the raffle at L.A. Live Steamers this weekend. Bob

Re: politics

What room are you clearing out to put that kind of equipment, Clark? I am real jealous! Bob

Re: Steamup timing WAS Re: PCLS web site up ...

The only reason I did not attend this year was because of the divorce thing. (The loss of my garden railroad is my biggest lament though.) I have no problem with May, good way to celebrate my birthday, as long as it isn't Memorial Day as that conflicts with the LA Live Steamer meet. (The fal

First Annual Steam On the Mountain-Live Steam Meet

I have been invited to set up my portable live steam track at the Fall Festival sponsored by the local Merchants Association. So, I am announcing the First Annual Steam on the Mountain Live Steam Meet. This will take place on October 7, 2000, in beautiful Lake Arrowhead, Ca; high in the San

Re: Material for a dummy coal load

I have made many coal loads using real coal. If you take some coal and put it in an old sock and smash, you get a bunch of small pieces. Make a base out of wood or metal and create a temporary dam around it. Place your coal inside and fill with a watered down solution of carpenters glue. L

Re: Rube in the Rain

In a message dated 8/12/2000 10:39:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Following Harry Wade's advice, I used wool felt from the fabric store. And lucky me (HUH??) I still have some paper thick asbestos to lag boilers. I do think it improves performance. Bob

Re: Gluing Metal?

Chuck, Hate to tell you but none of the epoxies will hold very long to a hot area. They get brittle and flake off. If these are small parts, maybe you can tin the contact area and then use a soldering gun or iron to attach them. That way you would only have minimal amount of paint area to re

Re: Butane Fire Starter

Don, I have done a little experimenting with the tanks and stuff and do not consider them very safe. The fill valves give out pretty easy, and if there is a chance of fire in the loco the tank will of course melt. Bob, the winner

Re: FS: vintage "Live Steam" magazine

Am I the first, Vance? Bob Starr

Re: LBSC book breaks record (?)

And unfortunately it is not one of the books in my library. Bob

Re: New Roundhouse Locomotive - "Bertie"

In a message dated 7/13/2000 11:03:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > http://roundhouse-eng.com I like Sammie better Bob

Re: Ceramic Blocks

In a message dated 7/13/2000 7:29:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > But the holes are too big, and there are too many of them, Cut a metal plate the shape of your ceramic and drill some holes in it. I have experimented with some 1/8"th holes. Place it under the element.

Re: Ceramic boilers

In a message dated 7/12/2000 7:19:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I do not know where they buy the ceramic, OK, time for me to chime in. I have been experimenting with ceramic burners for a while now with my vertical boiler Grasshopper and found some do's about the st

Re: San Diego Live Steam

In a message dated 7/11/2000 12:06:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Bought my first live steamer > at Frank the Trainman in 1975- I remember him. Spent a lot go time in SD myself. Bob

San Diego Live Steam

Here are some pictures that I took in San Diego, hope you all enjoy. http://www.geocities.com/cgnr.geo/lsgrc1.html Bob

Re: Ladder Chain & Sprokets

Stock Drive Parts Inc., 2101 Jericho Turnpike, Box 5416, New Hyde Park, NY11042-5416. Ph #516-437-6700. http://www.sdp-si.com Bob PS Their catalogs are a wealth of info

Re: Aluminum Case

Walt, They have them at Harbor Freight too. They are real nice. Bob

Live Steam at Sna Diego Canvention

Hi List, Just want to let all of you know that I will have my steam track set up at the convention this year. I will set it up Friday night and all are welcome to run on it from Friday to Sunday evening. Looking forward to seeing all of you that can make it. Bob

Re: Metal working tips

In a message dated 6/12/2000 11:06:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > For the jewelers saw with its fine tooth blades apply some bees wax to the > blade to provide lubrication and keep the teeth from loading up. Bees wax > is > generally available at most wood working

Queen Mary Live Steam Track

OK gang, here is the scoop. I go pick up the track today to set it up this weekend. Clark has offered to help me set it up. But WE NEED MORE HELP! Anybody that would like to help. Please come early Saturday morning and help us set up this track. We will also be using this track for the SD

Re: Live steam track at BTS

In a message dated 6/2/2000 10:30:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Group. I was looking forward to running on the steam track at the Queen Mary > this year. I am sorry to read > that it will not be available. Here is an offer from the folks at the BTS of > a layout,

Re: Live steam track at BTS

Gary, A while back I e-mail Richard Blanchard, who seems to be partially in charge of things in SD and he informed me that there will be a track there. Bob

Re: Gauge plate

In a message dated 6/1/2000 8:55:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Careful, though -- using the belt sander to do this may generate > enough heat to harden the piece before you have finished shaping > it. This is why I use a wet grinder. If you ever have a chance to p

Re: 4-wheel and 4-axle tenders

In a message dated 5/22/2000 10:54:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Do you have any pointers on cutting the B-mann down? Lucky for you, this loco has made it to my new house. This divorce thing is making me misplace everything. Been a long time since I have looked at t

Re: 4-wheel and 4-axle tenders

In a message dated 5/22/2000 5:35:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The ones on my Lionel caboose are quite small That made me think of a sparkie that I built once. The tender was built from a Bmann 10 wheeler which I chopped and sectioned. The locomotive is a highly m

Re: small tender-suitable trucks?

In a message dated 5/22/2000 6:13:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm looking for a > way to make a 4-axle tender Landon if you are looking to make that, just use the 1:20 Ozark Minatures pedestal mounts. Locomotives like Montezuma had such tenders. Here is a pic

Pics on SitG

Richard posted some nice pictures for Friday already for those who haven't seen them yet. http://www.steamup.com/webcam/nss00webfri/friday.html Bob

Re: Alternative fuel

Gee Walt it should work fine if you spray down the stack! Bob

Depressing as it may be....

With the impending divorce and the move to a new house it doesn't look as if I will be able to afford to make it to the Spring meet. It's a shame, I was looking forward to seeing you all and having that good time. Blow off some steam for me, Bob

Re: Mike's Hand Pump

In a message dated 5/14/2000 7:05:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I suspect someone will come up with a better alternative soon and pass > the info. around I don't own a Mike either but I have built a few hand pumps. I think that Walt's idea to increase the bore would

Re: Interesting looking locomotive

I have certainly borrowed some of the ideas put forth. I think that is one of the real assets in these kind of articles. Bob

Re: Aster Mike Progress Page

In a message dated 5/11/2000 8:12:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > How to keep the female half happy? It even works better if you make them something yourself. Except for me, cause now I live in my own separate house, oh well. Bob

Re: SILVER SOLDERING BOILERS

In a message dated 4/30/2000 10:38:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Brownel's (of gunsmithing supplies fame) has a product that is a paste, > specifically designed to be a heat soak called Heat Stop There is a product put out in the jewelry trade known as Ruby Sand. It

Re: Plastic loco drivers

In a message dated 4/30/2000 4:29:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > So in other words, "Try it and see"? {:) I would sure hate to take a locomotive apart just because the wheels melted!!

Re: SILVER SOLDERING BOILERS

Casey, Ah something on this list that I feel a bit authoritative on. Having been a jeweler and a metal sculpturer most of my life I have had one torch or another in my hands. At present I own seven torches of varying uses. If you are going to limit yourself to silver soldering boilers, the

Re: Steam Oil Sources

In a message dated 4/29/2000 5:55:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > There has been a lot of discussion lately about steam oil. I was curious as > to where everyone gets there oil I get my steam oil from the large scale club that I belong to. It is the dark stuff (which

Re: PISTON VALVE REVERSING (was R C Ruby?)

OK guys, I try to think that I am knowledgeable about steam engines, but I have no books or information on piston reversing valves. I would very much like to see the mechanics of how one is set up. If anybody has some sort of drawing of one I would greatly appreciate it or at least point me t

Teflon 0-Rings

I saw in my Small Parts Inc. Catalog that Teflon O-ring were now available. Has anybody used them? I was just wondering if they had any merit to our applications. Bob

Re: Where we've been ...

Damn, I sure hate rip-offs. I hope things get back to normal for you soon. Bob

Re: Pony pictures

That is really cool! But where are the cylinders? Am I missing something? Bob

Pics

Well, I'm recovering from hernia surgery from last Thursday, but I can't let that stop me. So recovery has been fast and I spent the day running trains. Here is some pics http://www.geocities.com/cgnr.geo/hrun.html Bob

Re: Brass

In a message dated 4/3/2000 12:19:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > 1. If you have half hard brass, what do you do to make it softer for > bending, etc? You can soften it by heating to dull red and then quenching in water as soon as the red disappears. > 2. If after

Re: Powered by ...

In a message dated 4/2/2000 10:28:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I still dont know what atomic fireballs are! I'm with you on this Geoff. I guess us people that live in the woods are a bit out of touch, but we live a peaceful life. Gee, I haven't heard a car go by a

Re: Back to School

In a message dated 3/28/2000 5:08:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I just started a class on Jewelry making and small castings It will definitely teach you how to solder. Having been a practicing jeweler for 30 plus years I can tell you it is some of the best training

Re: bear trap stack...

In a message dated 3/27/2000 3:18:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I hate snail mail corespondence. E-mail 'em: http://www.steamup.com/ Bottom of the menu. Bob

Re: I Love Spring and running Trains

In a message dated 3/27/2000 8:50:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Great goin'! How is your run time, and what did you do to fix it (since we > ran in December)? Jon, I had it running fairly well at DH, but still had a burner problem. Since then, I changed to a RH jet

Re: Ruby fire

In a message dated 3/26/2000 8:02:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The sound of > escaping butane is more like the whistle you describe. One of the prototypes that Bing brought to the QM show last year whistled like crazy. It was a very annoying noise and had something

Re: Sammie inside eccentrics

In a message dated 3/26/2000 7:16:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Here's the URL for Norm's Sammie mods. He does such nice work! Boy that makes a huge difference! It looks great, makes me want one even more. Bob

Re: I Love Spring and running Trains

In a message dated 3/25/2000 4:24:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Where's your traditional engineer - out rusting away somewhere? Come to think of it, the skinny little guy didn't make the trip today. Bob

I Love Spring and running Trains

Ah the warmth of the sun and just enough crisp to the air to give a good plume is the way it was this morning. Burned up a half a can of butane this morning running my vertical boiler locomotive. It is such a pleasure when a project finally completes itself and runs just the way you want it.

Re: materials

In a message dated 3/25/2000 7:28:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Any idea what the phosphor does? Royce, The phosphor adds hardness to the alloy. The phos-bronze that I get is CA-544 with this comp.: 88% Copper, 3.5-4.5% lead, 3.5-4.5 tin, 1.5-4.5% zinc,0.10% iron,

Re: materials

Royce, I believe Phos-bronze is close to marine grade bronze, which of course has a high degree of corrosion resistance. It is the most common that I find in my material supply catalogs like Small Parts Inc. whom I have an account with (very dangerous!). Bob

Re: another simple Ruby mod

In a message dated 3/23/2000 3:21:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Water jet > or laser are much preferable for most of the work we'd want to use > it for. Many of my friends in the ride on scales are using water jet to cut their frames. It is excellent as there is

Re: materials

In a message dated 3/23/2000 11:17:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > it wouldn't seem to be a good idea to have the same > material for bearing/wearing surfaces. > Any thoughts out there? I was always under the impression to use dissimilar metals for valve and sliding

Re: Aster Screwdriver Kit

In a message dated 3/23/2000 9:25:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > This hobby is worse than booze and gambling!! Yea, I'm glad I don't drink! I can go out and panhandle on the streets for steam money. Bob

Re: Great photos

In a message dated 3/21/2000 4:47:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Here are the pics for all to see from Gordon Watson's steam up Sunday > the 19th of March. Thank you, Tony! The two on LSOL just were not enough! Looks like you guys had a great time. Bob

Re: OIL BURNER

In a message dated 3/20/2000 12:31:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Is that the burner designed by Vic Shattuck? That's the the name. I haven't found the notes yet, and now that I recollect I think that you are right. I have seen the same design used on larger scale

Re: OIL BURNER

In a message dated 3/19/2000 6:48:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Is anybody using kerosene or fuel oil to power our small scale locomotives? There was a man from the SF area who built 2.1/2 gauge locomotives using kerosene burners that he designed himself. The gentlem

Re: Green Track at Live Steam shows

I dropped a note to the Big Train Show and this is their reply: At this point were not sure. Keep in touch on this. Trying to find a club to run it. Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Will the live steam track be set up for the show this year? > Bob Starr > [EMAIL PROTECTED] I offered my services

Re: Wheels

In a message dated 3/10/2000 11:11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It appears that they use them on > the front trucks of most of thier steam locomotives. Any Ideas??? Lloyd, Go to Bachmann page and order them: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/bachmann/mainpage/start2

Re: green track

In a message dated 3/8/2000 4:34:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The Frank S. was not the center of your attention in that photo! Background in Photography is very important :) Bob

Re: green track

In a message dated 3/8/2000 4:02:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm curious about this "green track". Is there a pic of this? I still have my page up from last year QM show. You can either access it from my site: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Den/6985/">ART IN GARDE

Re: Green Track at Live Steam shows

OK, here is the word from the SD Convention from the show co-ordinator Rick Blanchard. Bob, >Will there be a track for live steam at the convention? Schedule shows a SteamUp on Sunday, and I think the track will be up other times too. Cheers, Rick

Re: Green Track at Live Steam shows

I thought that he was no longer in business. Bob

Re: Boiler stuff...

I would say that I am in total agreement with you on this subject, Vance. I have certainly gone the route of building the fancy boilers and have found that they work real well, but in the end you are making tradeoffs in our small scale. You can make fine multi-tube boilers and spend lots of t

Re: Live Steam at trade shows

Clark, I have no idea who owns that track but if we can find out I certainly could put my energy to setting it up. As you know I am as much into promoting this hobby as you are. Bob Starr

Re: Paint, Dickins

Walt, Basically, the formulae I gave earlier is a gunsmithing technique. Some of my research for my metal sculptures has taken me into these techniques. Personally, I love rust and the colors that you can get. In all metal coloring you are trying to get the oxides to change color. Here i

Re: Paint, Dickins

Michael, Since you mentioned in previous letters that you have had fires coming out of your Dickens, I would suggest some sort of metal coloring instead of paint. If you have flames touching your paint it will bubble and peel no matter what kind it is. There are several ways to blacken metal

Driver Diameters

This probably seems like a very basic question, but it is just for reassurance purposes. When scaling a model, and the drivers are said to be 40", is this the tread or the flanges. I have always assumed it is the tread, but I have certainly been wrong on things before. Bob

Re: Butane/Propane Tanks

Truthfully IMHO, I think that the tanks are safe enough for the propane mix. I can only think that the manufacturers are playing safe at this time for their own protection. There are so many people suing each other for some of the silliest things. Most of us don't read the instruction sheets

Re: gas tank design

In a message dated 2/22/2000 10:44:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/images/gastank.gif Vance, I concur with your design completely, but just want to add my two cents worth. For ultimate safety the stay should be made of phos-bronze. The oth

Re: a cool engine

Boy Vance you don't want to give yourself too easy of projects do you! Anyway, not vintage enough for me, I am now doing drawings for Montezuma in 1:20.3. < http://www.geocities.com/cgnr.geo/mont1.jpg > Bob

Re: Butane Fuel

In a message dated 2/21/2000 2:53:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I am sure that the airlines would not be very > thrilled with me carrying cans of this stuff on the airplanes on the way to > the Steam-up in May in the SF Bay area. If they look in your bags, they w

Re: Cricket cab mods (was Help!!!!)

Vance, Mine is the newer Cricket, in fact the next to last one produced. So the safety valve was outside the cab and the dome just fits over it. I modified the original roof so that it is removable. Bob

Re: Help!!!!

In a message dated 2/21/2000 10:25:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Interesting idea about using it on a Cricket. I have the Cad drawings for my Cricket cab mod if anybody would want them. It is an add on to the original cab

Re: Sammie Sightings/Opinions

I had to hold myself back from buying one at DH. Jim Crabb you can elaborate more since I saw you running him. Bob

Re: LBSC's "The Live Steam Book" for sale

In a message dated 2/19/2000 1:01:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It's in (re)print by TEE Publishing at UKP12.95 I felt like a fool the other day because I bought a book on e-bay and when I received it, it was a Lindsay book. I paid too much so buyer beware. Bob

Re: Driver Diameter.

In a message dated 2/18/2000 1:04:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You should see the amount of odd shaped bits of metal in my scrap bin! Hey Mike, just as long as the scrap bin doesn't get bigger than the shop we will all be all right. Bob

Re: Driver Diameter.

Thanks Pat. It is what thought but I wanted to be sure

Re: Driver Diameter.

In a message dated 2/17/2000 11:48:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > B^2 x S x P > T.E. = -- lbs > W At the risk of sounding stupid (although a stupid question is one never asked). What does the symbol "^" mean in this formulae?

Re: Nightmare Units

In a message dated 2/16/2000 10:15:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Personally, I prefer to learn more. New things aren't always useful right > away. Sometimes they're never useful. Sometimes, though, they're just > what I need to know. Some of this talk has made my

Re: Pipe Fittings

In a message dated 2/15/2000 9:25:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Neither of the above they are special taper I mentioned earlier about SSSteam Model's taps. Bob seems to offer them in taper threads too. I see no price difference between any of his styles. BTW I hav

Re: Super heater and Boiler questions

In a message dated 2/13/2000 10:10:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >OK! Thanks for the info. Uh, dumb question . . . does brass work a little > longer than > >copper? When brass is heated to lower temperatures it gets brittle and will crack. I believe it is because o

Re: New cab for an Argyle Bantam

Phil, I did the same as Vance. You cab looks really great. Bob

Re: little taps and dies.

Lloyd, The best price on the model engineer type taps and dies that I have found is Sulphur Springs Steam Models. Bob

<    1   2   3   4   5   >