On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:14 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
That sounds more or less what I had in mind, yes, except the example
osm file used relations acting as children of the way almost, why
can't ways simply have children of
2009/8/31 JigPu killert...@gmail.com:
I understand why you feel that using a way+node relation or way+direction
tag may be a hack, but children are also a hack. Children not only only a
single problem (that of a way being asked to take on additional metadata
that really belongs to only a
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:14 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: [should join] multiple
lanes. From the wiki: relations are basically
groups of objects in which each object may take on a specific role.
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote:
Whether this
grouping is done by a relation or a new table isn't something I'm going to
comment on beyond the fact that it obviously could be done by a relation.
Yup.
I have a great fear of the solution proposed by John, though,
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote:
I have a great fear of the solution proposed by John, though,
specifically
because it allows nodes (and even more specifically, nodes which
represent
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote:
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
What do you mean by it allows nodes to be attached to individual
lanes? Do you mean you don't think a lane should be represented by a
series of nodes?
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
Ah. So I think the issue here is whether a lane can be:
1) explicitly traced out as a way (i.e. series of nodes), or
2) assumed to follow the same path as the parent way
If a lane is related to its adjacent lanes and
2009/8/30 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org:
Another reason this is a bad idea, is that its difficult to access,
search index and process. I think lanes need there own records, like
ways, nodes and relations.
There would be some absolute limitations we will have to work around,
but while it would
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 12:20 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
way id=
nd ref=.../
tag .../
tag .../
tag k='lanes' v='2' /
tag k='lanedirection' v='backward;forward'
tag k='maxspeed' v='130;110' /
/way
That solution would fail
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
True but the example did not show why that was needed. Looking at
commercial mapping software, the typical solution is to split the way.
This whole discussion started because of people wanting to do weird
things to show how a stop sign was applicable to a lane
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 7:57 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
True but the example did not show why that was needed. Looking at
commercial mapping software, the typical solution is to split the way.
This whole discussion started because of
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
I really don't see how it's less complicated to use the physical rather
than the logical. It's actually much more complicated when you get into the
micro areas and you start adding straight lines through a large intersection
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
It was you who suggested that a stop sign is applicable to a lane not a
way. I'd say, like Tobias, that it is applicable to a way and a direction.
No, you stop at a stop sign which is a point on a way, direction only
matters if you can't tag this point on
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:01 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
It was you who suggested that a stop sign is applicable to a lane not a
way. I'd say, like Tobias, that it is applicable to a way and a
direction.
No, you stop at a stop sign
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Of course, if you want to add up the instances of one-lane, bi-directional,
roads with stop signs, and the instances of undivided roads with stop-signs
which only apply to some lanes going in the same direction, I'm sure there
are many many more of the former.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:37 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
However I think this is the most common case:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Unless I'm misreading this, anyone going from 4th Avenue onto Rodeo Drive
has to stop, and everyone going from Roxton Ave onto Rodeo Drive has to
stop. That, in my opinion, has nothing to do with lanes. I'm not sure why
it's so important to model in the
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 10:27 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
Why is a relation the best solution?
What solution is better? Your lane-based solution doesn't work if there is
only one lane with bi-directional traffic. The solution of adding a node
and a direction would be
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What solution is better? Your lane-based solution doesn't work if there is
only one lane with bi-directional traffic. The solution of adding a node
and a direction would be second best, but I think it's clunky adding
multiple extra nodes instead of one
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 11:19 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What solution is better? Your lane-based solution doesn't work if there
is
only one lane with bi-directional traffic. The solution of adding a node
and a direction would be
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
No, it's a redesign of the whole system. A system which wasn't made for
per-lane routing information.
It wasn't designed with relations either, but they now exist too.
In any case I've only suggested a minor change to add children to ways
and how this could
2009/8/31 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
No, it's a redesign of the whole system. A system which wasn't made for
per-lane routing information.
It wasn't designed with relations either, but they now exist too.
In any case I've only suggested a minor
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 11:45 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
No, it's a redesign of the whole system. A system which wasn't made for
per-lane routing information.
It wasn't designed with relations either, but they now exist too.
In any
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
And that's part of what's wrong with it. You still haven't explained how to
handle stop signs on bi-directional, one lane road. You haven't explained
how to handle lane-changes. You require ways to be split every time the
number of lanes changes (though I
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 12:51 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
And that's part of what's wrong with it. You still haven't explained how
to
handle stop signs on bi-directional, one lane road. You haven't
explained
how to handle
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What happens when the road goes from four lanes to six? Should this be
recorded at every intersection which has a turning lane?
I really need to stop feedint the trolls. Lanes only get tagged if
they differ from the way to need it, the values of the way
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:22 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Right, and at an intersection which has a turning lane, there is a
restriction on a per-lane basis. You can only turn left from the turning
lane - you can only go straight (or
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but it'd be nice if you'd
answer
my questions about how to do all those things I asked about.
I don't see a point in answering any more
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but it'd be nice if you'd answer
my questions about how to do all those things I asked about.
I don't see a point in answering any more of your questions to be
honest, you seem to be trolling.
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Right, and at an intersection which has a turning lane, there is a
restriction on a per-lane basis. You can only turn left from the turning
lane - you can only go straight (or possibly right) from the other lanes.
So do you propose splitting the way at
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:09 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What happens when the road goes from four lanes to six? Should this be
recorded at every intersection which has a turning lane?
I really need to stop feedint the trolls. Lanes
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
wrote:
2009/8/31 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but it'd be nice if you'd
answer
my questions about how to do all those things I asked about.
I
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 2:14 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
Now I know you're being a troll, however if we used lanes instead of
using ways you could easily tag that intersection you gave as an
exception rather than the average case that I presented which is a lot
more common.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
Lanes are ways.
A way is a list of at least two nodes that describe a linear feature such
as a street, or similar.
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On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote:
You want to have two completely different ways to tag stop
signs? What's your solution? Stop signs are directional, whether they are
lane based or not.
+1 - I agree with Tobias and Anthony. John, I know you feel that
solving the
On Sunday, August 30, 2009, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote:
You want to have two completely different ways to tag stop
signs? What's your solution? Stop signs are directional, whether they are
lane based or not.
+1 - I
2009/8/31 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
+1 - I agree with Tobias and Anthony. John, I know you feel that
solving the lane problem will solve the stop sign problem (indeed
it might), but the stop sign problem *can be solved independently* (by
indicating the direction or the junction to
I've had some more time to think about this, things should stay more
or less how they are now, the only extension OSM DB wise would be an
additional table storing lane information for ways.
Also the existing API would only need a small extension to cope with
this as well.
way id=
nd ref=.../
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 4:00 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/28 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org:
A Way can have many lanes, Infact the default is lanes=2 (or is it?)
oneway=yes infers lanes=1
Seems like a sane assumption.
One with numerous counter-examples, then.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 6:51 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
way id=
nd ref=.../
tag .../
tag .../
lane id=... direction=forward from-outside=2
nd ref=...
tag k='maxspeed' v='110' /
/lane
lane id= direction=backward from-outside=1
nd ref=
tag k='maxspeed'
2009/8/30 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
way id=
nd ref=.../
tag .../
tag .../
tag k='lanes' v='2' /
tag k='lanedirection' v='backward;forward'
tag k='maxspeed' v='130;110' /
/way
That solution would fail to allow us to attach nodes to individual lanes.
This is just another hack to try and
2009/8/28 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
Ok, I understand. Do you have any antibiotics?
If have an answer or not doesn't matter, the OSM community is more
than the sum of it's parts and some people may already have experience
with other systems that do do this already and may be able to
2009/8/28 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
I actually think it leaves things in slightly better shape - like me
tagging a post box outside, or tagging my addr:housenumber. Sure, it's
I'm not talking about post boxes or house addressing schemes, I'm
talking about being able to tag lanes on a
Sorry for thinking out loud but here we go.
A Way can have many lanes, Infact the default is lanes=2 (or is it?)
oneway=yes infers lanes=1
lanes can be used for many purposes including turning, parking, walking cycling.
Lanes need names I guess partially if we all going to use them to
describe
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:21 PM, John Smithdeltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/28 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
Ok, I understand. Do you have any antibiotics?
If have an answer or not doesn't matter, the OSM community is more
than the sum of it's parts and some people may already
2009/8/28 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org:
A Way can have many lanes, Infact the default is lanes=2 (or is it?)
oneway=yes infers lanes=1
Seems like a sane assumption.
A Lane may need to be in a relation etc.
The way would be the relation, and the properties of the way should
cascade to the
John Smith wrote:
Actually no, you can still tag stop signs on a way like people always
have, then when lanes get sorted out they can be dealt with properly.
I believe that stop signs have usually nothing to do with lanes (though
there probably are exceptions). They apply to everyone travelling
2009/8/28 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
I believe that stop signs have usually nothing to do with lanes (though
there probably are exceptions). They apply to everyone travelling into a
certain direction, no matter on what lane. This becomes apparent in
streets where there are no distinct
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