But I ask if it is valid for OSM or not, I know SCO vs * was extreme,
but that doesn't mean it is valid for us. Can you point on some
similarities in evidence, cercumstances, factors that can make this a
valid case? If not it is the same as Larry Flynt vs America or most
lawsuits.
On Wed, Jan 6,
2010/1/6 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
But I ask if it is valid for OSM or not, I know SCO vs * was extreme,
but that doesn't mean it is valid for us. Can you point on some
similarities in evidence, cercumstances, factors that can make this a
valid case? If not it is the same as Larry
Ok, Now I got you, basically anybody that might be able to claim to be
copyright holder of any data we put into the database might be able to
open a lawsuit against us to exhaust us out of business, not necessary
to win the case. With the list of potential sources of information
that can be claimd
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:40 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
I was claiming it's possible to launch a
friverlous lawsuit with no basis and keep it going on for years and
effectively bankrupt the competition in the process.
OSMF is located in the UK, right? Doesn't the UK have
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
If not, the first step in avoiding such a lawsuit would be to reincorporate
in another state with sane laws.
FFS. Sane laws? Think a little before you post, please.
Steve
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2010/1/6 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:40 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
wrote:
I was claiming it's possible to launch a
friverlous lawsuit with no basis and keep it going on for years and
effectively bankrupt the competition in the process.
OSMF is located in
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:15 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/1/6 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
We must find a procedure to avoid such lawsuits. i.e. show us where
some community members have copied you and we remove the information
from your sources kind of response
2010/1/7 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:15 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
2010/1/6 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
We must find a procedure to avoid such lawsuits. i.e. show us where
some community members have copied you and we remove the
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:51 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry, but accuracy is important to some of us, and using
commercial data is inaccurate, visiting is one way to get correct
information, as is contacting the council responsible for the roads.
Absolutely, but
2010/1/5 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
2) map by survey alternate legal methods, extremely fast progress
right now, with fairly good accuracy widespread, and for several
years: correct the errors
I'm not disagreeing that shouldn't be done, I'm saying we shouldn't be
in such a mad rush
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
And I fail to see how carrying out a pilgrimage to the street in
question changes anything.
It certainly builds confidence that the names you're entering
Am 05.01.2010 15:17, schrieb Anthony:
I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law. What I suggest is
not acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.
So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken. One
brief attempt pointed to EU
2010/1/6 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Really? Where? What laws are being suggested to be broken?
Not familiar with frivilous lawsuits?
Also Australian's, and the OP seems to be mapping in Australia, don't
have the same copyright laws as in the US:
Telstra, a carrier, won it's copyright case over
2010/1/4 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl:
Please look up the meaning of the word hardly in a dictionary. I give you
one hint: It's not the same as nothing.
I disagree however, there is plenty of things to map, land uses,
buildings, back tracks etc etc etc...
2010/1/4 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
They can contribute GPS traces too!
Explaining to people why they should buy a GPS and then how to upload
the data is more of an effort than mapping it ourselves :)
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On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Cartinus wrote:
The Australian outback is vast, but there is hardly anything mappable by
survey out there.
And in good Australian language, that is BS.
There is lots to map by survey, I've been there and am doing it.
Please come and join me so you can eat your words.
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, Cartinus wrote:
Please look up the meaning of the word hardly in a dictionary. I give
you one hint: It's not the same as nothing.
I've been speaking English for over 50 years, and I don't need instruction on
the meaning of words.
I'm in the place which you think is not
Ok, much of Europe are surveyed, and have good Y! or other Hi-res coverage,
US have probably the best Hi-res coverage around, along with Japan,
Australia have its Nearmap. What about the frikin rest of the world? I am
desperatly trying to map Brazil, and not even half the states have Hi-res
2010/1/4 Aun Johnsen li...@gimnechiske.org:
Also the density of OSM mappers are much higher in US, Europe and Australia,
than here in Brazil. The entire Brazilian community is probably smaller in
Not sure why you think Australia has a high density of mappers...
Considering we have one of the
Disclaimer: IANAL and the following is in the Australian context.
Quoting Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
But...where do you get the street name from?
The street sign on-site. You could argue you have copyright exemption through:
Buildings and models of buildings
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
[ ... ]
Anyway, the answer to my question seems to be use your own judgment, don't
tell anyone where you got the information from, and everything will be ok.
Which is a weird answer, but ok.
Well no. The answer is no it
Hi,
Richard Weait wrote:
Or as the JOSM message page says, Don't copy from other maps
Yes but! in the end it is the individual and his reasoning or conscience
that have to decide what is right - or as the OP said, use your own
judgment.
We don't copy from other maps. Fine. If I am in a
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
The answer is, We don't copy other maps at OpenStreetMap because we
respect copyright law and related rights, even if we disagree with
some aspects of them. []
There's a difference between doing something which is
2010/1/5 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
There's a difference between doing something which is clearly in violation
of copyright law and doing something which might be illegal according to
some people's interpretations.
I liked your first answer better:
I think we're all better off if people would
2010/1/5 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What would Wikinews be like if they had a rule which said don't copy from
other news articles, and people interpreted that to mean that if they read
Two cases of copyright infringement still doesn't make something legal.
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
You have to be able to copy facts from time to time.
And that means you have to use your own judgment as to what constitutes a
copyright infringement and what constitutes legitimate research.
Use your own judgment? On this issue, I
But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a general
policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but why, exactly? How can a
piece of information like the name of the street be copyright? Whose
copyright law are we dealing with, anyway?
In my country it is quite simple -
On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:
In my country it is quite simple - it must be verified locally,
because lot of sources are quite buggy and full of errors. Sure,
imports from local gov. sources would help, but they aren't always
available and up to date.
We also have vandals who
2010/1/5 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
We also have vandals who steal street signs - the one outside my house is
missing, for example. So if you want to know what street you have to ask - but
whose information is not copyright?
I wonder what the law in Australia is with respect to finding out
street
Quoting Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
Hi,
Richard Weait wrote:
Or as the JOSM message page says, Don't copy from other maps
We don't copy from other maps. Fine. If I am in a foreign place and I
ask a local what the name of the road is, and he draws out his A-Z
(saying: I've been
Quoting Anthony o...@inbox.org:
What would Wikinews be like if they had a rule which said don't copy from
other news articles,
Well that's different:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/s103b.html
---
COPYRIGHT ACT 1968 - SECT 103B
Fair dealing for purpose of
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
You have to be able to copy facts from time to time.
And that means you have to use your own judgment as to what constitutes a
copyright infringement and
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
I find it incredibly strange that you're more comfortable relying on the
consensus than your own judgment, but hey, whatever works for you.
To put it in other words for you, as to what constitutes a copyright
infringement, I'm more
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
I find it incredibly strange that you're more comfortable relying on the
consensus than your own judgment, but hey, whatever works for you.
To put it in
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
To put it in other words for you, as to what constitutes a copyright
infringement, I'm more confident in the consensus legal opinion than
in my own legal opinion.
I wasn't aware that there was a consensus legal opinion as to what
2010/1/5 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
I wasn't aware that there was a consensus legal opinion as to what
constitutes a copyright infringement with regard to casual non-systematic
repetition of street names found in an online map.
How do you know the copyrighted maps are even accurate, and in the
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
I haven't really decided, and I don't know where the line from
non-systematic to systematic is.
I don't think anyone does. Hence it's near impossible to ensure you
don't step over it - which is why the large majority of
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
What if my system is, map all the roads in a 200m radius, then look up
the names, then repeat?
I'd say that certainly qualifies as systematic. As to your other scenarios,
I'm not sure you gave enough information.
By
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
And I fail to see how carrying out a pilgrimage to the street in question
changes anything.
It certainly builds confidence that the names you're entering are correct.
A couple of people have tried to sneak this argument in.
Regarding adding a source to names of nodes/ways:
For example for Klious street:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/36115806 . I use the same
source for the nearby street Perseus street:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27405804 .
You can see the image hosting site I linked to
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
There is no point endangering the
genuinely collected data for the sake of some lazy copying.
This is not fairly worded. In Australia (and other sparsely populated
areas), it is not just for the sake of some lazy
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net
wrote:
There is no point endangering the
genuinely collected data for the sake of some lazy copying.
This is not fairly worded. In Australia
2010/1/4 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
This is not fairly worded. In Australia (and other sparsely populated
areas), it is not just for the sake of some lazy copying - this
issue is critical to whether there is any hope of eventually getting
reasonable coverage of street names throughout
2010/1/4 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
long way to take photo of a couple of streets. Physically visiting streets
is seriously time consuming. The ratio must be something like 10:1 or worse.
And the only option for most of Australia, just be thankful for the
hi-res imagery that is
On Sunday 03 January 2010 22:20:01 Roy Wallace wrote:
This is not fairly worded. In Australia (and other sparsely populated
areas), it is not just for the sake of some lazy copying - this
issue is critical to whether there is any hope of eventually getting
reasonable coverage of street names
2010/1/4 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl:
The Australian outback is vast, but there is hardly anything mappable by
survey out there. When it comes to urban and suburban mapping (where most
streetnames and cycleways are), Australia isn't any different from any other
developed country.
There is
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:02 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2010/1/4 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl:
The Australian outback is vast, but there is hardly anything mappable by
survey out there. When it comes to urban and suburban mapping (where most
streetnames and cycleways
2010/1/4 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Do they have Internet access there? If so, then they can map it
themselves. If not, then there's not much point in us mapping it for them
anyway.
I didn't think we were mapping just for locals, what about tourists?
As for internet access, there is 3G
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 6:38 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:
2010/1/4 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
Do they have Internet access there? If so, then they can map it
themselves. If not, then there's not much point in us mapping it for
them
anyway.
I didn't think we were mapping
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
Does Nearmap own the copyright on the images?
Aha, it seems they do.
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On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:
... I get the impression that the group
of Australians currently so active on the mailing list isn't lazy but they
are certainly impatient.
Perhaps :) But my point is, if there may be legal ways to do this more
efficiently we
On Monday 04 January 2010 00:02:29 John Smith wrote:
2010/1/4 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl:
The Australian outback is vast, but there is hardly anything mappable by
survey out there. When it comes to urban and suburban mapping (where most
streetnames and cycleways are), Australia isn't any
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:
From this and several earlier discussions I get the impression that the
group
of Australians currently so active on the mailing list isn't lazy but they
are certainly impatient.
Yes, perhaps :) Probably the big difference
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:
From this and several earlier discussions I get the impression that the
group
of Australians currently so active on the mailing list isn't lazy but they
Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the
streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at
it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to
2010/1/2 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the
streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at
it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
trace from (I'm
On 2 Jan 2010, at 11:49, Steve Bennett wrote:
Traditionally, mapping streets in OSM has relied on physically visiting the
streets to get a GPS trace, and noting the names of streets while you're at
it. But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
trace from (I'm
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Shaun McDonald
sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.ukwrote:
You still need to go and visit the streets. With the London mapping parties
last year after most of London was traced from the Yahoo imagery, what was
found was:
* Many places the imagery was out of date, and the
2010/1/2 Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk:
* Many places the imagery was out of date, and the road layout had changed.
In this case, Nearmap, is doing monthly fly overs of several
Australian cities, and they have new imagery online within about 2
weeks of taking it...
But yea, new yahoo
Steve Bennett wrote:
But...where do you get the street name from? I think there's a
general policy that you can't copy it off other maps...but why,
exactly? How can a piece of information like the name of the
street be copyright?
Quick answer as requested:
1. Your jurisdiction may give
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 6:49 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
But now with the advent of high quality aerial photography that we can
trace from (I'm thinking of nearmap, in australia), you don't have to visit
the street to get the shape.
But...where do you get the street name
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:
Quick answer as requested:
1. Your jurisdiction may give databases of facts protection over and above
the facts themselves. Simplifying hugely, the EU does, the US doesn't.
http://www.iusmentis.com/databases/ for
Anthony wrote:
I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
extraction of insubstantial parts. If you're just using a map site
occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing. If you're
systematically using it on road after road, that's another.
Oh, sure. But
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:
Anthony wrote:
I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
extraction of insubstantial parts. If you're just using a map site
occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing. If
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote:
There is no point endangering the
genuinely collected data for the sake of some lazy copying.
So, when the license change occurs, OSM is going to delete everything and
start all over from scratch?
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 2:33 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
Furthermore, if you're using more than one source, who's to say whether you
copied the data from Google and verified it with the other source, or if you
copied the data from the other source and verified it with Google?
Yeah,
2010/1/2 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
Anyway, the answer to my question seems to be use your own judgment, don't
tell anyone where you got the information from, and everything will be ok.
Which is a weird answer, but ok.
I wouldn't say that's a widespread view of people in the project,
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
But if I was going to be doing ground surveys, there are lots of places
I'd rather visit than these new outer suburban housing developments.
Why
2010/1/3 Anthony o...@inbox.org:
I'd say a key provision there is the one about repeated and systematic
extraction of insubstantial parts. If you're just using a map site
occasionally, when you hit a snag, that's one thing. If you're
systematically using it on road after road, that's
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