Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[stevea]

I largely agree, but I have found there are times and places where explicitly 
saying "this particular wiki here is being PREscriptive (should be done), 
rather than the usual tone of DEscriptive (as done now)" can be a value-add to 
both our map and our wiki (in the long run).  When done well and right, this 
practice can encourage a messy state in the map into a more orderly one, with 
the wiki aiding in displaying progress, "how far along" this is.  When this 
"task" (or "project" as it is a good chunk of work) is done, the wiki can 
describe itself as descriptive (like most are) and it fully self-documents.  
This really works, but such "macro states" are best declared quite explicitly, 
so that people know how a particular wiki is being used.  (The vast majority 
are indeed "how things are actually mapped.")  It starts with a goal, a 
prescriptive description of "how things should be" is asserted, then we build 
it.  Finally (sort of), around the time it's "done" (or it gets close, as some 
things are never "done") we say "this is how it is."  This practice is not THAT 
unusual, even if some wiki pages are explicit about it and others are less so 
or not.

A subset of these are something we used to call "WikiProjects" but somehow that 
moniker seems to have dissolved.

SteveA

> On Aug 21, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> I feel like now is a good time to remind folks that the wiki should be 
> descriptive of how things are actually mapped, not strictly proscriptive.

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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[80hnhtv4agou--- via talk]

FYI;
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism
 
Purposeful removal or degradation of data that are known to be correct,
 
Deliberate adding incorrect data;
 
People who revert other people's work should expect to be able to demonstrate 
that the reversion was well reasoned and proportionate to the issue.
 
Not There;
Unverified     if someone puts in 400 +   unverified  tags in one edit,
 
If someone reverts, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
 
If someone deletes, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
 
If someone refuses to let others, edit because they have taken over that type 
edit, all bus stops in the same area,
all train stations in the same area, all boundaries in the same area.
 
Edits that do not conform to the subject wiki. 
 
if someone downloads data that will create one mulitipolygon, against all wikis
 
Also there is no wiki on unverified edits.
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[80hnhtv4agou--- via talk]

That is a good question, I answered him on what he sent me, that he was 
complaining about in the form of a threat,
 
as andy said,
 
I was trying fix the ghost issue on a 10 year old  National Hydrography 
Dataset, download that was one 81 mile
 
multipolygon that was not even his edit, I answered him with the wiki. rule, 
and he attacked all my that day’s 
 
river edits some i have been working on for a year, attacking other issues next 
to the river as well
 
things that have been all ready ? by others users.
  
>Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:59 PM -05:00 from Alessandro Sarretta 
>:
> 
>If this is the changeset ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86230442 ), 
>where is the discussion?
>Ale
>On 07/06/20 17:33, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
>>86230442
>>>Sunday, June 7, 2020 8:47 AM -05:00 from Dave F via talk < 
>>>talk@openstreetmap.org >:
>>> 
>>>Provide a link to the changeset.
>>>
>>>DaveF
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us]

That is a good question, I answered him on what he sent me, that he was 
complaining about in the form of a threat,
 
as andy said,
 
I was trying fix the ghost issue on a 10 year old  National Hydrography 
Dataset, download that was one 81 mile
 
multipolygon that was not even his edit, I answered him with the wiki. rule, 
and he attacked all my that day’s 
 
river edits some i have been working on for a year, attacking other issues next 
to the river as well
 
things that have been all ready ? by others users.
  
>Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:59 PM -05:00 from Alessandro Sarretta 
>:
> 
>If this is the changeset ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86230442 ), 
>where is the discussion?
>Ale
>On 07/06/20 17:33, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
>>86230442
>>>Sunday, June 7, 2020 8:47 AM -05:00 from Dave F via talk < 
>>>t...@openstreetmap.org >:
>>> 
>>>Provide a link to the changeset.
>>>
>>>DaveF
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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[Alessandro Sarretta]

If this is the changeset 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/86230442), where is the discussion?


Ale

On 07/06/20 17:33, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:



86230442

Sunday, June 7, 2020 8:47 AM -05:00 from Dave F via talk
>:
Provide a link to the changeset.

DaveF

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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[80hnhtv4agou--- via talk]

>86230442
>>Sunday, June 7, 2020 8:47 AM -05:00 from Dave F via talk < 
>>talk@openstreetmap.org >:
>> 
>>Provide a link to the changeset.
>>
>>DaveF
>> 
>>On 07/06/2020 14:07, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
>>>  IF someone, not local, relying on satellite views, goes after my good 
>>>faith edit, based on my on the ground
>>> 
>>>surveillance thinks my edit was wrong trying to fix broken polygon’s,  that 
>>>are making ghosts lines on the
>>> 
>>>ID edit page. sends me a change-set  discussion  notice, telling me not to 
>>>edit what i edited, and i answer him
>>> 
>>>with the  Wiki rule that was the bases of my edit. then goes after my 
>>>current days edit and all related edits
>>> 
>>>a years worth, (like a revenge thing) some technical but most based on what 
>>>he see’s on the satellite view
>>> 
>>>that are, were WRONG.
>>> 
>>>Not to re-edit fix, who, how do you put it all back ?  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>> 
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> 
> 
>  
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[Dave F via talk]

Provide a link to the changeset.

DaveF

On 07/06/2020 14:07, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
  IF someone, not local, relying on satellite views, goes after my 
good faith edit, based on my on the ground
surveillance thinks my edit was wrong trying to fix broken polygon’s,  
that are making ghosts lines on the
ID edit page. sends me a change-set discussion notice, telling me not 
to edit what i edited, and i answer him
with the Wiki rule that was the bases of my edit. then goes after my 
current days edit and all related edits
a years worth, (like a revenge thing) some technical but most based on 
what he see’s on the satellite view

that are, were WRONG.
Not to re-edit fix, who, how do you put it all back ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 07.06.20 à 15:07, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk a écrit :
> how do you put it all back ?

giving a link to get a neutral opinion is often a good idea :)
the first time, just put a public message on the changeset.
there is the revert plugin in josm to cancel all the changes.
if it happens again, contact the DWG mentioning the changeset
with the comment.

Regards,
Marc

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[OSM-talk] VANDALISM !

[80hnhtv4agou--- via talk]

  IF someone, not local, relying on satellite views, goes after my good faith 
edit, based on my on the ground
 
surveillance thinks my edit was wrong trying to fix broken polygon’s,  that are 
making ghosts lines on the
 
ID edit page. sends me a change-set discussion notice, telling me not to edit 
what i edited, and i answer him
 
with the Wiki rule that was the bases of my edit. then goes after my current 
days edit and all related edits
 
a years worth, (like a revenge thing) some technical but most based on what he 
see’s on the satellite view
 
that are, were WRONG.
 
Not to re-edit fix, who, how do you put it all back ?  
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism by donpedro1980

[Rod Bera]

Hi Paul,

based on the 3-4 changesets I've just reviewed from them, it doesn't
seem super-obvious to me (apart from the rather odd changeset comment:
"Many kids can be found playing here and walkers enjoy this area at all
times") that they are vandalising.

They've been mapping for less than a week, maybe they just need some
guidance.

I don't know the area though, and don't know if Bing imagery there is up
to date (seems not, when considering your own edits (e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/281607526 , 2 years ago)
so it's hard for me to say.
You seem to have local knowledge so you probably can tell better than
most of us.

In any case you're right to be vigilant.

Regards,

Rod

On 01/02/17 18:42, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Could we get a block to get this guy's attention?  He's adding things in
> the Tulsa area that have no basis in reality in an apparent attempt to
> game Pokemon Go, and unresponsive to changeset comments from myself and
> nammala
> 
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[OSM-talk] Vandalism by donpedro1980

[Paul Johnson]

Could we get a block to get this guy's attention?  He's adding things in
the Tulsa area that have no basis in reality in an apparent attempt to game
Pokemon Go, and unresponsive to changeset comments from myself and nammala
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:17 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On 26/02/2016 22:21, Mike Thompson wrote:
>
>> Thanks!  I haven't found any valid edits from this user.  He/she has been
>> tagging any patch of bare ground as building=house.  In some cases there
>> might be a building inside that bare patch of ground (difficult to tell
>> with the imagery), but in most cases there is nothing.
>>
>
> Be careful about that - imagery in the less privileged parts of the world
> often lags quite a bit... On the ground in Dakar I see quite a different
> picture from what I get from Bing orbital imagery.
>
> But I haven't looked at that particular user.
>
Good advice, but in this case I don't think that is what was going on.
* The "buildings" they drew are irregular shaped.
* The "buildings" roughly match the shape of clearings in the forest on the
2013 DG imagery provided for the project in the HOT Tasking Manager.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Dale Kunce]

Missing maps reached out to the user today with some guidance and
information that edits are live. We've also cleaned up the offending data.

Well continue to figure out if this was at an event and work to tighten up
any training gaps.

Thanks everyone.
On Feb 26, 2016 4:39 PM, "Mike Thompson"  wrote:

> DWG has been contacted.
>
> Changeset comment has been entered along the lines Andy suggested.
>
> I am not at a place at the moment where I can revert, if someone else
> whats to handle that would be great.
>
> Mike
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>> On 26/02/2016 21:09, Mike Thompson wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>> ...
>> appear to be of very poor quality, or out right vandalism.
>>
>> How should this be handled?
>>
>>
>> In this particular case, the changeset comments suggest it's a remote HOT
>> project ("#hotosm-project-1401#MissingMaps #CHAI Source=WorldView-2,
>> Digital Globe, NextView, 28 Sep 2013"), so I'd probably mention it on the
>> #hot IRC channel.  They may be able to pin down where the edits were made
>> from and work out who the instructors / supervisors of the "missing maps"
>> session was (if it was one of their "group edit" sessions).
>> Notwithstanding "Doodle the Dog", I would cut new mappers a bit of slack
>> though - I'm sure my first 27 edits were a bit rubbish too.
>>
>> On the more general point, especially where mappers don't seem to be
>> "getting the hang of things" after extended periods editing, I'd just try
>> and concentrate on what they need to do to get from where they are to where
>> everyone would like them to be.  This normally means things like "zoom in a
>> bit before editing" and "don't over-trace from aerial imagery if you're not
>> sure what it is".
>>
>> It is difficult though - we have a process for dealing with vandalism
>> (which is thankfully rare) that works well*, but as a project we deal less
>> well with edits that are well-meaning but "just a bit rubbish".  We are
>> getting better though - http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions
>> is full of people being polite, helpful and trying to make especially new
>> users better mappers.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> * as Chris said, email the data working group (which is actually
>> d...@osmfoundation.org).
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Mike Thompson]

DWG has been contacted.

Changeset comment has been entered along the lines Andy suggested.

I am not at a place at the moment where I can revert, if someone else whats
to handle that would be great.

Mike

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 26/02/2016 21:09, Mike Thompson wrote:
>
>
> 
> ...
> appear to be of very poor quality, or out right vandalism.
>
> How should this be handled?
>
>
> In this particular case, the changeset comments suggest it's a remote HOT
> project ("#hotosm-project-1401#MissingMaps #CHAI Source=WorldView-2,
> Digital Globe, NextView, 28 Sep 2013"), so I'd probably mention it on the
> #hot IRC channel.  They may be able to pin down where the edits were made
> from and work out who the instructors / supervisors of the "missing maps"
> session was (if it was one of their "group edit" sessions).
> Notwithstanding "Doodle the Dog", I would cut new mappers a bit of slack
> though - I'm sure my first 27 edits were a bit rubbish too.
>
> On the more general point, especially where mappers don't seem to be
> "getting the hang of things" after extended periods editing, I'd just try
> and concentrate on what they need to do to get from where they are to where
> everyone would like them to be.  This normally means things like "zoom in a
> bit before editing" and "don't over-trace from aerial imagery if you're not
> sure what it is".
>
> It is difficult though - we have a process for dealing with vandalism
> (which is thankfully rare) that works well*, but as a project we deal less
> well with edits that are well-meaning but "just a bit rubbish".  We are
> getting better though - http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions is
> full of people being polite, helpful and trying to make especially new
> users better mappers.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
> * as Chris said, email the data working group (which is actually
> d...@osmfoundation.org).
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Pierre Béland]

This is a new user. This Overpass query shows all his edits and let's us 
validate rapidly. 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/eE4
This user edits were done in south-west of Haiti. Buildings, roads and even 
admin level objects were traced. All the buildings and roads I looked at do not 
correspond to objects on the ground. They were traced in wood areas in 
mountains. 

Yes the DWG should look at this.  
Pierre 


  De : Chris Hill <o...@raggedred.net>
 À : Mike Thompson <miketh...@gmail.com>; OpenStreetMap 
<talk@openstreetmap.org> 
 Envoyé le : vendredi 26 février 2016 16h15
 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism
   
Email the data working group d...@openstreetmap.org with details they can block 
the user. 
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/02/2016 21:09, Mike Thompson wrote:



...
appear to be of very poor quality, or out right vandalism.

How should this be handled?



In this particular case, the changeset comments suggest it's a remote 
HOT project ("#hotosm-project-1401#MissingMaps #CHAI Source=WorldView-2, 
Digital Globe, NextView, 28 Sep 2013"), so I'd probably mention it on 
the #hot IRC channel.  They may be able to pin down where the edits were 
made from and work out who the instructors / supervisors of the "missing 
maps" session was (if it was one of their "group edit" sessions).  
Notwithstanding "Doodle the Dog", I would cut new mappers a bit of slack 
though - I'm sure my first 27 edits were a bit rubbish too.


On the more general point, especially where mappers don't seem to be 
"getting the hang of things" after extended periods editing, I'd just 
try and concentrate on what they need to do to get from where they are 
to where everyone would like them to be.  This normally means things 
like "zoom in a bit before editing" and "don't over-trace from aerial 
imagery if you're not sure what it is".


It is difficult though - we have a process for dealing with vandalism 
(which is thankfully rare) that works well*, but as a project we deal 
less well with edits that are well-meaning but "just a bit rubbish".  We 
are getting better though - 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions is full of people being 
polite, helpful and trying to make especially new users better mappers.


Cheers,

Andy


* as Chris said, email the data working group (which is actually 
d...@osmfoundation.org).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Mike Thompson]

Chris, Andy,

Thanks!  I haven't found any valid edits from this user.  He/she has been
tagging any patch of bare ground as building=house.  In some cases there
might be a building inside that bare patch of ground (difficult to tell
with the imagery), but in most cases there is nothing.

Mike

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 26/02/2016 20:55, Mike Thompson wrote:
>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37315914
>>
>> Should I just manually delete, or would it be better for someone to do a
>> revert.
>>
>
> In a a case where someone has made a few valid edits and then something
> that obviously isn't, I'd personally start with something like "I think you
> may have left your keyboard unattended and your seven-year-old brother has
> been playing".  It's an (artificial) way of saying "this is not OK" without
> saying "you did a bad thing". I'd add this publically to the changeset
> discussion so everyone can see what's happening.  I'd then go on to explain
> why it's not OK to do things like this in OSM, and to point to places where
> it might be OK (like OpenGeoFiction, though I'm not sure they're big on
> pictures of animals).
>
> I'd also check the previous edits, to make sure that there was nothing
> hidden in there that was also dodgy, and I'd revert the dodgy stuff.  It
> looks like a straight revert should work here (JOSM revert plugin*).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy (SomeoneElse, a member of the DWG, but all of the above is doable
> without any DWG "special powers").
>
> * a slight caveat applies at the moment - when I last looked, the latest
> version of JOSM's reverter plugin didn't work with the tested version of
> JOSM.  If prompted to update plugins by JOSM don't, and you should be OK.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Chris Hill]

Email the data working group d...@openstreetmap.org with details they can block 
the user. 
-- 
Cheers, Chris (chillly)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/02/2016 20:55, Mike Thompson wrote:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37315914

Should I just manually delete, or would it be better for someone to do 
a revert.


In a a case where someone has made a few valid edits and then something 
that obviously isn't, I'd personally start with something like "I think 
you may have left your keyboard unattended and your seven-year-old 
brother has been playing".  It's an (artificial) way of saying "this is 
not OK" without saying "you did a bad thing". I'd add this publically to 
the changeset discussion so everyone can see what's happening.  I'd then 
go on to explain why it's not OK to do things like this in OSM, and to 
point to places where it might be OK (like OpenGeoFiction, though I'm 
not sure they're big on pictures of animals).


I'd also check the previous edits, to make sure that there was nothing 
hidden in there that was also dodgy, and I'd revert the dodgy stuff.  It 
looks like a straight revert should work here (JOSM revert plugin*).


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse, a member of the DWG, but all of the above is doable 
without any DWG "special powers").


* a slight caveat applies at the moment - when I last looked, the latest 
version of JOSM's reverter plugin didn't work with the tested version of 
JOSM.  If prompted to update plugins by JOSM don't, and you should be OK.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Mike Thompson]

So far all of the edits by user:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/G%20Jenny

appear to be of very poor quality, or out right vandalism.

How should this be handled?

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37315914
>
> Should I just manually delete, or would it be better for someone to do a
> revert.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Vandalism

[Mike Thompson]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37315914

Should I just manually delete, or would it be better for someone to do a
revert.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism at Estero Bay?

[malenki]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

btw.: wouldn't this merit a natural=bay instead of the note=bay?

Of course though somehow I was temporarily blinded or something. ;)
Nevertheless Josm mentioned it as Meeresbucht (Translation of bay) on
the relations window.

The user has responded now. He said he didn't understand the data so he
deleted it and will do it anew...
I told him thats not the common way on OSM, to learn about
multipolygones and will restore most of the deleted data which hasn't
been remapped so far.

sigh
Thomas


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[OSM-talk] Vandalism at Estero Bay?

[malenki]

User Eraque22 asked on help.osm.org what the issue is with Estero Bay
since no water was rendered there. I added a multipolygon to the
existing multiple segments of natural=water (not created by Eraque22) so
that the water started to get rendered and answered the question¹.
The next thing I realised the rendering seemed to stop again.

Then I saw the user had deleted all the natural=water ways and nearly
all islands and started to draw them anew in mostly worse quality then
before. Of course a lot is missing.

I send him a message asking for the reason of the deletions. Though he
was mapping all the time - as I realised the deletions, as I send the
message and still two hours after I sent it - there was no answer.

What to do? Hope he draws it all anew quite good?
malenki

¹
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/17440/disappearing-coastal-water

Screenshot, grey lines are deleted data:
http://malenki.ch/OSM/Bilder/2012-11-04_214311_scr_Estero_Bay_1.png

Example for deletions:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2549516/history



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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism at Estero Bay?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

btw.: wouldn't this merit a natural=bay instead of the note=bay?

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] 'Vandalism' alert

[Barnett, Phillip]

Not vandalism, but misunderstanding, I believe. Still can someone revert these 
changesets? (Someone has already alerted him/her in the comments as to 
inappropriateness)

From the User diaries 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/djwright7101/diary/12027#comments

Hey I was wondering if anyone on here creates imaginary cities on this site 
and if it was okay. I am currently doing an imaginary city in realistic 
settings in the US in the state of Washington. Input is welcome since I am a 
new member.

Thanks!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[David Earl]

On 09/09/2009 00:10, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 David Earl wrote:
 Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in 
 Potlatch and groups of changes fit much better with changesets 
 anyway?
 
 Lots of people still prefer it. I've not seen any evidence of people
 mistakenly selecting it - I think the big lightning bolt is pretty clear!

I had to revert changes for someone this week who specifically said to 
me that's what had happened - he didn't realize he was editing live 
data. People don't read stuff in front of them.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Liz]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009, David Earl wrote:
 On 09/09/2009 00:10, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  David Earl wrote:
  Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in
  Potlatch and groups of changes fit much better with changesets
  anyway?
 
  Lots of people still prefer it. I've not seen any evidence of people
  mistakenly selecting it - I think the big lightning bolt is pretty clear!

 I had to revert changes for someone this week who specifically said to
 me that's what had happened - he didn't realize he was editing live
 data. People don't read stuff in front of them.

 David


Both modes have equal prominence on the front page.
Perhaps adding one stage of difficulty to get to the live edit is justified.
When I do use Potlatch I have to think whether I am 'meant' to be doing it 
live or delayed.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Richard Fairhurst]

David Earl wrote:

 I had to revert changes for someone this week who specifically said to
 me that's what had happened - he didn't realize he was editing live
 data. People don't read stuff in front of them.

Well, you can't completely idiot-proof these things, and it's a great  
shame to inconvenience everyone else just for the benefit of a few  
(expletive deleted)s who can't or won't read.

Maybe an are you sure? could be displayed for the new user who edits  
live for the first time. If someone puts a trac ticket in then I'll do  
that as and when.

That said, I'm not envisaging Potlatch 2 will have an edit live mode  
unless someone else codes it, simply because live editing is _much_  
harder to code than edit-with-save and I'd rather spend the time on  
something else.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[wynndale]

 On Wed, 9 Sep 2009, David Earl wrote:
 On 09/09/2009 00:10, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  David Earl wrote:
  Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in
  Potlatch and groups of changes fit much better with changesets
  anyway?
 
  Lots of people still prefer it. I've not seen any evidence of people
  mistakenly selecting it - I think the big lightning bolt is pretty
 clear!

 I had to revert changes for someone this week who specifically said to
 me that's what had happened - he didn't realize he was editing live
 data. People don't read stuff in front of them.

 David


 Both modes have equal prominence on the front page.
 Perhaps adding one stage of difficulty to get to the live edit is
 justified.
 When I do use Potlatch I have to think whether I am 'meant' to be doing it
 live or delayed.



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Why not go straight into Edit and Save and then have a button to go to
Edit Live (one click to go there as now)?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Roy Wallace]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 5:06 AM, wynnd...@lavabit.com wrote:

 Why not go straight into Edit and Save and then have a button to go to
 Edit Live (one click to go there as now)?

+1

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[David Earl]

It's obviously nonsense - a way extending right across the globe! But it 
looks like scribbling, the kind of thing people do in Potlatch not 
realising they are editing the live map.

Despite the prompts at the beginning people STILL don't realise they are 
doing this. This is the second time this week I've seen his happen.

Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in Potlatch 
and groups of changes fit much better with changesets anyway?

David

On 08/09/2009 17:04, Chris Miller wrote:
 I just discovered a suspicious looking edit while working on a map splitter 
 tool (http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/page/tile-splitter), as follows:
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/737502
 
 The splitter tool ended up creating a separate area just for node 355719431, 
 which is completely on its own right out in the middle of the Pacific! To 
 me this way looks like a doodle from someone just playing around with osm. 
 It's the one and only edit from that user (hurkvan).
 
 If it does indeed look like it shouldn't be there, could someone more 
 knowledgeable 
 than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data 
 before. (I do intend to learn at some point when I have time since I have 
 some good GPS tracklogs from remote countries that are yet to be mapped, 
 eg Bhutan.)
 
 Many thanks,
 Chris
 
 
 
 
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[OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Chris Miller]

I just discovered a suspicious looking edit while working on a map splitter 
tool (http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/page/tile-splitter), as follows:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/737502

The splitter tool ended up creating a separate area just for node 355719431, 
which is completely on its own right out in the middle of the Pacific! To 
me this way looks like a doodle from someone just playing around with osm. 
It's the one and only edit from that user (hurkvan).

If it does indeed look like it shouldn't be there, could someone more 
knowledgeable 
than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data 
before. (I do intend to learn at some point when I have time since I have 
some good GPS tracklogs from remote countries that are yet to be mapped, 
eg Bhutan.)

Many thanks,
Chris




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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Matthias Versen]

Chris Miller wrote:

 than myself please delete it? I haven't done any editing of the osm data

Deleted...

Matthias


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Matthias Versen]

David Earl wrote:
 It's obviously nonsense - a way extending right across the globe! But it
 looks like scribbling, the kind of thing people do in Potlatch not
 realising they are editing the live map.

 Despite the prompts at the beginning people STILL don't realise they are
 doing this. This is the second time this week I've seen his happen.

The way is an old one, created an older potlatch Version.
I think the new prompt for Editing with save at the starts helps a lot.

Matthias


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism/user error?

[Richard Fairhurst]

David Earl wrote:
 Richard - why do we still need this mode now you can save in 
 Potlatch and groups of changes fit much better with changesets 
 anyway?

Lots of people still prefer it. I've not seen any evidence of people
mistakenly selecting it - I think the big lightning bolt is pretty clear!

cheers
Richard
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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Stefan Monnier]

 Subtle vandalism will always be the hardest to spot. If it is
 imagined that it might become a problem, then perhaps uploading a
 change to anything which already existed could notify the last 1 or
 2 people that amended that feature, as they are the most likely to
 know what is correct or be in a position to double check if they
 doubt what they did previously.
 This would be very useful indeed.  Not just for vandalism.
 A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
 With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.

I have better things to do than keep an eye on the various parts that
I changed in the past.  That's what computers are for.  Which is why
I think it'd be *much* better if any change automatically sends
a heads-up email to the previous author(s).


Stefan


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Tristan Scott]

I now use itoworld to give me a RSS feed for sessions of updates in my
area (or indeed any defined area)

Tristan

2008/10/14 Stefan Monnier [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Subtle vandalism will always be the hardest to spot. If it is
  imagined that it might become a problem, then perhaps uploading a
  change to anything which already existed could notify the last 1 or
  2 people that amended that feature, as they are the most likely to
  know what is correct or be in a position to double check if they
  doubt what they did previously.
  This would be very useful indeed.  Not just for vandalism.
  A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
  With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.

 I have better things to do than keep an eye on the various parts that
 I changed in the past.  That's what computers are for.  Which is why
 I think it'd be *much* better if any change automatically sends
 a heads-up email to the previous author(s).


Stefan


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[spaetz]

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 02:34:11PM +0200, Stanislav Brabec wrote:
 A completely different community project Discogs has following policy:
 - You can subscribe to news in area of your interest.
 - Voting on new data: Tell, how correct and accurate are these changes
   are.
...
 - Data with more votes are considered as valid.

Like in musicbrainz.org (a project I like a lot) where people enter loads of 
information, but it never gets voted on because it's a boring an ddumb task? :-)

spaetz

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Stanislav Brabec]

Matthias Julius wrote:
 Stefan Monnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Subtle vandalism will always be the hardest to spot. If it is
  imagined that it might become a problem, then perhaps uploading a
  change to anything which already existed could notify the last 1 or
  2 people that amended that feature, as they are the most likely to
  know what is correct or be in a position to double check if they
  doubt what they did previously.
 
  This would be very useful indeed.  Not just for vandalism.
 
 A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
 With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.

A completely different community project Discogs has following policy:
- You can subscribe to news in area of your interest.
- Voting on new data: Tell, how correct and accurate are these changes
  are.
- Vote is a privilege, new users don't have vote privilege. Automatic
  system gives or removes privilege to vote depending on defined
  criteria (number of correct submissions, voting frequency etc.)
- New data appear with needs vote flag, even if submitted by users
  with vote privileges.
- Data with more votes are considered as valid.

One then can decide to use or ignore data without sufficient
confirmation.

-- 
Stanislav Brabec
http://www.penguin.cz/~utx


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[maning sambale]

 - Vote is a privilege, new users don't have vote privilege.
-1, sorry.

cheers,
maning




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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Jonathan Bennett]

Stanislav Brabec wrote:
 A completely different community project Discogs has following policy:
 - You can subscribe to news in area of your interest.
 - Voting on new data: Tell, how correct and accurate are these changes
   are.
 - Vote is a privilege, new users don't have vote privilege. Automatic
   system gives or removes privilege to vote depending on defined
   criteria (number of correct submissions, voting frequency etc.)
 - New data appear with needs vote flag, even if submitted by users
   with vote privileges.
 - Data with more votes are considered as valid.

-1 to any more voting on anything in general. Consensus is not the same
as voting, and votes can be rigged, especially online.

-- 
Jonathan (Jonobennett)


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Peter Miller]

Yes yes! We have been doing some tedious work with servers to increase our
capacity which is now done and we hope to be able get planet coverage in the
near future.

Thanks for the feedback and encouragement :)



Regards,



Peter


 -Original Message-
 From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 06 October 2008 12:53
 To: Peter Miller
 Cc: Barnett, Phillip; Talk Openstreetmap
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM
 
 On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Using OSM Mapper it is already possible to identify who is changing data
  within an defined area.
 
 Talking of which, is it going to cover the US soon? I'm patiently
 waiting on it :-) It's been useful to me, most recently in Cape Town
 for the FOSS4G conference, and I'd love it to become world-wide.
 
 Cheers,
 Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Matthias Julius]

Stefan Monnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Subtle vandalism will always be the hardest to spot. If it is
 imagined that it might become a problem, then perhaps uploading a
 change to anything which already existed could notify the last 1 or
 2 people that amended that feature, as they are the most likely to
 know what is correct or be in a position to double check if they
 doubt what they did previously.

 This would be very useful indeed.  Not just for vandalism.

A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.

Matthias

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Nic Roets]

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:


 A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
 With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.


The first step will be a proper way back machine. But it hasn't been
discussed yet, much less designed or implemented :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6
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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Matthias Julius]

Nic Roets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:


 A good diff tool or better a diff API call would be helpful as well.
 With that you could periodically look over the changes in your area.


 The first step will be a proper way back machine. But it hasn't been
 discussed yet, much less designed or implemented :
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6

Well, first you need to detect the error before you can revert it.

Matthias

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Peter Miller]

Using OSM Mapper it is already possible to identify who is changing data
within an defined area. I use this to monitor for changes in areas I care
about using RSS setting up an RSS feed to check for all changes made by
people other than me in the area.

We developed the functionally in the product because it was needed. More
about it here:
http://itoworld.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-osm-mapper-for-openstreetmap.html

We can't currently identify deleted features, and this is a limitation that
we will overcome soon, but we can check for name changes and the like.

Since using it I have occasionally spotted unintentional problems produced
by people who are trying to help, but have spotted no deliberated areas in
my area.



Regards,


Peter Miller
www.itoworld.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barnett, Phillip
 Sent: 03 October 2008 12:26
 To: 'Frederik Ramm'; vegard
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] vandolism on OSM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 PHILLIP BARNETT
 SERVER MANAGER
 
 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
 LONDON
 WC1X 8XZ
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 T +44 (0)20 7430 4474
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 E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 P  Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this
 email?
 -Original Message-
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frederik Ramm
 Sent: 03 October 2008 11:25
 To: vegard
 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] vandolism on OSM
 
 Hi,
 
 vegard wrote:
  But we'll need a more permanent measure against vandalism.
  Something that'll make it easy to reverse things.
 
 But note that our most potent weapon against vandalism is the ease and
 speed with which it can be undone.
 
 
 
 Frederick,
 That's only the case for OBVIOUS vandalism or accident, as in the OP, that
 can be seen in a casual 'fly-over' the map. What about subtle vandalism
 (renaming random streets, changing one-way directions etc)
 Even in areas that I have personally mapped, I doubt that I'd be able to
 tell at a glance that this had happened without digging out my original
 notes and comparing street by street(in effect, remapping the area) which
 I wouldn't do without a huge visual clue.
 
 Cheers
 
 Please Note:
 
 
 
 Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not
 necessarily represent
 those of Independent Television News Limited unless specifically stated.
 This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for
 the use of the individual
 or entity to which they are addressed.
 If you have received this email in error, please notify
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of
 our clients and business,
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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism on OSM

[Ed Loach]

Jeffrey wrote:

 Well, none of the schemes proposed so far actually deal with 
 the case of subtle vandalism. 

Subtle vandalism will always be the hardest to spot. If it is
imagined that it might become a problem, then perhaps uploading a
change to anything which already existed could notify the last 1 or
2 people that amended that feature, as they are the most likely to
know what is correct or be in a position to double check if they
doubt what they did previously.

That still wouldn't handle addition of things that don't exist type
vandalism, but hopefully that would be a little easier to spot.

Ed



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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[paul youlten]

I suspect that a large part of the problem is in the delay between making an
edit and being able to see it rendered on the map.

Maybe if Katie had been able to see the effects of her edits on the map
immediately she would have stopped and reverted them herself.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Jo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Richard Fairhurst schreef:
  Ulf Lamping wrote:
 
 
  This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered
  editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of
  confusion ...
 
 
  Fine. I'm really not going to attempt and convince anyone here - one
  has to be a bit of a pig-headed UI fascist to develop stuff like
  this, otherwise you end up with design by committee which just
  doesn't work.
 
  I think it's good that we offer editors that work in different ways;
  that there is more than one answer to the questions of how's stuff
  written to the db and how do I avoid causing damage, although
  Potlatch doesn't adequately answer those questions yet; and that
  those who are arguing for a save button are trying to impose a
  model which doesn't suit Potlatch. You and Frederik and doubtless
  others disagree - as shown by the fact that you find something
  painful while I actively prefer it. That's fine, there's no
  monopoly on editors. I don't feel it's impossible to have a usable
  editor that doesn't work on the prepare and commit principle, and
  that's what I'm concentrating on building.
 
 Keep up the good work Richard!

 Polyglot (who uses both editors; JOSM for initial entering of
 data/Potlatch for fine tuning afterwards and aligning on Yahoo! imagery)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism, was Vandalism in Trumpington

[Jeffrey Martin]

Does the project have any long term plans on how to deal
with vandalism?

Should some features be locked?

Do we need some kind of hierarchy with block captains
and country coordinators? (I don't want that.)

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:36 AM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40
 on April 16? This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around
 Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run
 a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally
 made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area.

 I could undo it manually, but the changes are significant and it would
 be easier if this could be done automatically.

 I will send her (presumably) a message.

 David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Andy Allan]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40
  on April 16?

I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and
the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal
footing when it comes to rolling back.

As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously
someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to
roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone
who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism, was Vandalism in Trumpington

[Andy Allan]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Does the project have any long term plans on how to deal
 with vandalism?

There's more ideas than there are developers willing and capable of
implementing them!

 Should some features be locked?

 Do we need some kind of hierarchy with block captains
 and country coordinators? (I don't want that.)

I doubt that we'd go down those lines. What I would be focussing on is
trying to make the reversion easier than the vandalism itself - at
that point we should be in a much better position to keep on top of
things should we run into problems. I think our range of possibilities
will be much improved after next weekend's hack day, but there's a
whole load of development work to go into this.

Cheers,
Andy

 On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:36 AM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40
  on April 16? This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around
  Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run
  a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally
  made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area.
 
  I could undo it manually, but the changes are significant and it would
  be easier if this could be done automatically.
 
  I will send her (presumably) a message.
 
  David
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[David Earl]

On 27/04/2008 17:25, Andy Allan wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after 17:40
  on April 16?
 
 I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and
 the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal
 footing when it comes to rolling back.

Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the 
whole of Cambridge?

 As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously
 someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to
 roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone
 who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway.

I would. It's going to take me an hour or so to repair these changes, 
which are all isolated (there's no further changes in that area); if I 
could roll back, it would be quick and easy.

Sadly I have the OSM file for this, but I did it during API4, so it 
won't read any more, otherwise I could just copy my original data.

David


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[OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Skywave]

You can convert that file. Just search for 04to05.pl in SVN/TRAC

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 On 27/04/2008 17:25, Andy Allan wrote:
  On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:36 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Would it be possible to roll back changes made by user Katie after
 17:40
   on April 16?
 
  I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and
  the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal
  footing when it comes to rolling back.

 Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the
 whole of Cambridge?

  As time goes on, I expect there will be more options. Obviously
  someone with db access could write some exceptionally complex SQL to
  roll back a particular users' changes, but I'm not sure that anyone
  who can would rather do that than just use the editors anyway.

 I would. It's going to take me an hour or so to repair these changes,
 which are all isolated (there's no further changes in that area); if I
 could roll back, it would be quick and easy.

 Sadly I have the OSM file for this, but I did it during API4, so it
 won't read any more, otherwise I could just copy my original data.

 David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[David Earl]

On 26/04/2008 23:36, David Earl wrote:
 This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around 
 Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with cycleways, run 
 a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and generally 
 made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area.

The perpetrator has replied, slightly to my surprise. As I had thought, 
she had no idea that she was changing the live database and she 
apologises profusely.

But this raises once again the ease with which people who don't know 
what they are doing can wreck things unintentionally. None of the 
changes I've had to undo in my area seem to have been wanton vandalism: 
all three incidents have been people playing, and two of them have been 
after the play mode was introduced in Potlatch. We won't stop 
determined vandals, but we can try to make it harder to make mistakes 
like this.

I've noticed that the start, play,... buttons often appear then 
disappear shortly after in IE without me pressing them (I can't speak 
for Firefox, I don't use it often enough to tell). I wonder if this is 
part of the problem - that people may never see the 'play' mode button?

Even so, I'd like to suggest we make this rather harder to mess up: what 
about we put a flag into the user data that says first timer that is 
on to start with and can be changed by that user via the API; and that 
Potlatch and maybe JOSM put up a warning screen on first attempt at 
editing which says you are about to change the OpenStreetMap live map 
data. Are you sure you are read to do this? If you haven't done this 
before, please try out editing first in 'play' mode when changes aren't 
saved and then three buttons, to proceed, cancel or go into play mode; 
and on proceed, clear the flag.

If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode buttons be 
fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed when 
you press start?

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Andy Allan]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I don't believe that there are any tools available for rollback and
  the like beyond those in the editors, so everyone is on an equal
  footing when it comes to rolling back.
 

  Oh. I thought this had been done.

It might have been - it's hard to keep track of everything that goes
on around here :-)

 So what happens if someone deletes the
 whole of Cambridge?

- We hope they don't
- We hope they wait until after the monitoring and rollback
hackathon has happened
- We all muck in and help out reverting stuff, or work out some other
way to fix it.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Oh. I thought this had been done. So what happens if someone deletes the
  whole of Cambridge?

What I used to do was after uploading an area I also saved it to disk.
So I had saved copies of my neighbourhood. If you noticed somebody
deleted something I could just load the file into JOSM, make some
dummy change and upload, viola! Not exactly nice, but it worked.

Something that would be nice would be a server you could point to that
had data from a week ago, that would make it much easier to revert
stuff like this if it get noticed in time...

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Richard Fairhurst]

David Earl wrote:

 If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode  
 buttons be
 fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed  
 when
 you press start?

It's not a bug as such - it's currently intentional that it defaults  
to edit the data - but I do agree that it would be better to have a  
more descriptive welcome screen that requires it to be cleared before  
you proceed, with (of course) a don't show this again checkbox. I  
don't want to do it half-cocked, so it's not a quick fix, but  
Potlatch development priorities are often decided by frequency of  
requests on the mailing lists so you've just bumped that one up a bit.

(Incidentally, on the issue of vandalism and accountability, where  
were we with disabling anonymous edits through the main API...?)

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[David Earl]

On 27/04/2008 17:49, Skywave wrote:
 You can convert that file. Just search for 04to05.pl in SVN/TRAC

Thanks!

That almost worked - the conversion left some empty strings in the XML 
which JOSM didn't like, but removing those redundant lines got me the 
data I needed.#

With copy and paste between layers for the ways that had been deleted, 
plus merge nodes, I was able to pretty quickly put that all back 
together again.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Shaun McDonald]

On 27 Apr 2008, at 17:52, David Earl wrote:

 On 26/04/2008 23:36, David Earl wrote:
 This user has removed or overlaid quite a few roads around
 Trumpington, Cambridge, and replaced several streets with  
 cycleways, run
 a tertiary road along the river and across a farm track, and  
 generally
 made a complete mess of my careful mapping in that area.

 The perpetrator has replied, slightly to my surprise. As I had  
 thought,
 she had no idea that she was changing the live database and she
 apologises profusely.

 But this raises once again the ease with which people who don't know
 what they are doing can wreck things unintentionally. None of the
 changes I've had to undo in my area seem to have been wanton  
 vandalism:
 all three incidents have been people playing, and two of them have  
 been
 after the play mode was introduced in Potlatch. We won't stop
 determined vandals, but we can try to make it harder to make mistakes
 like this.

 I've noticed that the start, play,... buttons often appear then
 disappear shortly after in IE without me pressing them (I can't speak
 for Firefox, I don't use it often enough to tell). I wonder if this is
 part of the problem - that people may never see the 'play' mode  
 button?


I see this behaviour in Safari too. Also if you just go and start  
working on the data, it assumes start/live mode. I think this should  
be made modal, so that you can't accidentally choose the live mode,  
when play is the one that is really wanted. It would be nice to have  
some indication as to whether you are in live or play modes.

Shaun

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Richard Fairhurst]

Shaun McDonald wrote:

 I see this behaviour in Safari too. Also if you just go and start
 working on the data, it assumes start/live mode. I think this should
 be made modal, so that you can't accidentally choose the live mode,
 when play is the one that is really wanted. It would be nice to have
 some indication as to whether you are in live or play modes.

There _is_ an indication, a bright red one, if you're in play mode.

I've already said that I plan to make it modal.

If you see it in Safari please provide a test case so I can reproduce  
it.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

  Is the fact that Potlatch does live editing a design decision, or are
  there technical reasons behind it (i.e. it would be much more
  difficult to have a Flash editor with a save button)?
 
 It's a design decision. If you do buffered editing, you have to a)  
 do conflict management, b) visualise unsaved changes on a map that  
 stretches everywhere. Both are very serious UI challenges and  
 complications for what's meant to be the newbie-friendly editor.

Conflicts may happen even with today's Potlatch - they're just less
likely. (But likely to become more likely in the future as the number
of users rises!)

And about visualising unsaved changes on the world map - isn't that
what play mode does?

 People occasionally make comparisons with text-based wikis like  
 Wikipedia, but it's not really helpful, because they're much more  
 modal: when you've edited a Wikipedia page, you either save or abort.  
 You can't just leave it unsaved as you continue browsing. So if you  
 translate that model to OSM, where the atoms are much smaller, you  
 end up presenting a Save/Cancel dialogue box on every deselect,  
 which is a UI disaster.

Well now you are the one who is making invalid comparisons. You can't
leave tons of Wiki articles unsaved while browsing, but I don't see
why I could not leave one street unsaved as I tend to the neighbouring
one!

I'm not sure if you really do newcomers a favour by denying them the
ability to enter a number of changes to different ways, then see how
they play together, and then save them.

And if somebody first makes some edits in London and after that some
completely unrelated edits in Brazil, then I'd damn well want him to
close his London edits - ideally with a comment about what he thinks
he has done - before he starts something else.

 For this reason, the issue would be largely solved - as David  
 suggests - by requiring those who aren't sure what they're doing to  
 actively choose between Edit and Play.

That would probably fix David's problem but still not give me my save
button. What I'd like to see (and use!) comes down to doing some stuff
in play mode and then switching over to real mode (whoa, i386
flashback!), whereby Potlatch asks me do you want to retain your play
mode changes. Then, just a slight renaming (play mode becomes edit
mode, real mode becomes save) and we're there ;-)

 (The issue would be _completely_ solved by doing this _and_ making  
 Potlatch easier to use in general, i.e. pop-up help, fewer obscure  
 keypresses, etc. It's an ongoing thing.)

The original issue, yes, likely. 

 If you want buffered editing, use JOSM. And at that point I could get  
 onto the subject of are we - in particular, the wiki - encouraging  
 people to run [use JOSM] before they can walk [use Potlatch], but  
 that's a whole nuther kettle of fish. ;)

What I want is encourage people to have an idea about what they're
doing, and communicate that idea to others. I don't think that there
really is an use-case for browse editing, i.e. someone opening
Potlatch just to look at something and making a few edits where he
suddenly sees a mistake. My assumption is that people know (roughly)
what it is they want to edit BEFORE they hit the edit button. And I
want them to make that complete edit, double-check if they have
achieved what they wanted, and then save it.

People don't use Potlatch because they don't want buffered editing.
People use Potlatch because it is much quicker to load, learn, and 
use. This would not be diminished by a save button; in fact, I believe
a newcomer would feel much safer if one would tell him that nothing is
changed until he clicks save.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

 People use Potlatch because it is much quicker to load, learn, and
 use. This would not be diminished by a save button

On which point we disagree, I suspect irreconcilably; and  
respectfully I suggest the greater cause of OSM usability would be  
better served by us each spending a couple of hours coding on our  
respective editors, rather than bashing seven bells out of each other  
on the mailing list.

:)

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Ulf Lamping]

Richard Fairhurst schrieb:
 Frederik Ramm wrote:
   
 Is the fact that Potlatch does live editing a design decision, or are
 there technical reasons behind it (i.e. it would be much more
 difficult to have a Flash editor with a save button)?
 
 It's a design decision. If you do buffered editing, you have to a)  
 do conflict management, b) visualise unsaved changes on a map that  
 stretches everywhere. Both are very serious UI challenges and  
 complications for what's meant to be the newbie-friendly editor.
   
Wiki's seems to be working well in this regard. I mean, wiki pages can 
also be pretty long ...

Anyway,  newbies *have* problems with the current model, not maybe 
problems as you mention here.
 People occasionally make comparisons with text-based wikis like  
 Wikipedia, but it's not really helpful, because they're much more  
 modal: when you've edited a Wikipedia page, you either save or abort.  
 You can't just leave it unsaved as you continue browsing. So if you  
 translate that model to OSM, where the atoms are much smaller, you  
 end up presenting a Save/Cancel dialogue box on every deselect,  
 which is a UI disaster.
   
You are editing a wiki page in several small pieces, called characters, 
lines, chapters. You are editing the OSM map in small pieces, called 
nodes, ways, tags, ...

 From a usability perspective your whole argumentation makes no real 
sense to me here.
 For this reason, the issue would be largely solved - as David  
 suggests - by requiring those who aren't sure what they're doing to  
 actively choose between Edit and Play. 
Even with Edit, I would expect to have an option to Save or Cancel 
editings later. Seems that others have the same problem/expectation  ...

BTW: This Edit vs. Play is a concept that you'll see rarely if ever, 
there might be reasons that it's less used.
 The sole reason this  
 hasn't been done yet is really that lots of people want lots of  
 features in Potlatch and those which are mentioned most on the  
 mailing lists/users' diaries/forum tend to get done first. This  
 doesn't come up much, so it hasn't been. It will be. In fact I'm  
 kinda tempted just to do it this evening because it's probably a  
 whole lot easier, and less typing, than a protracted mailing list  
 debate.

 (The issue would be _completely_ solved by doing this _and_ making  
 Potlatch easier to use in general, i.e. pop-up help, fewer obscure  
 keypresses, etc. It's an ongoing thing.)

 If you want buffered editing, use JOSM. And at that point I could get  
 onto the subject of are we - in particular, the wiki - encouraging  
 people to run [use JOSM] before they can walk [use Potlatch], but  
 that's a whole nuther kettle of fish. ;)
   
I'm sorry, but I really still think that you are getting in the wrong 
direction ...

This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered 
editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of 
confusion ...

Regards, ULFL


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Richard Fairhurst]

Ulf Lamping wrote:

 This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered
 editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of
 confusion ...

Fine. I'm really not going to attempt and convince anyone here - one  
has to be a bit of a pig-headed UI fascist to develop stuff like  
this, otherwise you end up with design by committee which just  
doesn't work.

I think it's good that we offer editors that work in different ways;  
that there is more than one answer to the questions of how's stuff  
written to the db and how do I avoid causing damage, although  
Potlatch doesn't adequately answer those questions yet; and that  
those who are arguing for a save button are trying to impose a  
model which doesn't suit Potlatch. You and Frederik and doubtless  
others disagree - as shown by the fact that you find something  
painful while I actively prefer it. That's fine, there's no  
monopoly on editors. I don't feel it's impossible to have a usable  
editor that doesn't work on the prepare and commit principle, and  
that's what I'm concentrating on building.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Robert (Jamie) Munro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
| David Earl wrote:
|
| If nothing else, Richard, can the apparent bug with the mode
| buttons be
| fixed and the text make it clearer that live data is being changed
| when
| you press start?
|
| It's not a bug as such - it's currently intentional that it defaults
| to edit the data - but I do agree that it would be better to have a
| more descriptive welcome screen that requires it to be cleared before
| you proceed, with (of course) a don't show this again checkbox. I
| don't want to do it half-cocked, so it's not a quick fix, but
| Potlatch development priorities are often decided by frequency of
| requests on the mailing lists so you've just bumped that one up a bit.

I suspect that the problem is that people think they can play a bit,
then get a Do you wish to save your changes?, and be able to press no.
~ So I guess Potlatch may need a splash screen that makes it's all
changes are saved straight away philosophy clearer to new users.

Personally I think the play mode is very confusing. Now that we have
http://main.dev.openstreetmap.org/, it's arguably not necessary. We
should just direct new people to have a play there.

Robert (Jamie) Munro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=ECJY
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism in Trumpington

[Jo]

Richard Fairhurst schreef:
 Ulf Lamping wrote:

   
 This all sounds you're trying to cure the pain of not using buffered
 editing with adding another concept that will add another layer of
 confusion ...
 

 Fine. I'm really not going to attempt and convince anyone here - one  
 has to be a bit of a pig-headed UI fascist to develop stuff like  
 this, otherwise you end up with design by committee which just  
 doesn't work.

 I think it's good that we offer editors that work in different ways;  
 that there is more than one answer to the questions of how's stuff  
 written to the db and how do I avoid causing damage, although  
 Potlatch doesn't adequately answer those questions yet; and that  
 those who are arguing for a save button are trying to impose a  
 model which doesn't suit Potlatch. You and Frederik and doubtless  
 others disagree - as shown by the fact that you find something  
 painful while I actively prefer it. That's fine, there's no  
 monopoly on editors. I don't feel it's impossible to have a usable  
 editor that doesn't work on the prepare and commit principle, and  
 that's what I'm concentrating on building.
   
Keep up the good work Richard!

Polyglot (who uses both editors; JOSM for initial entering of 
data/Potlatch for fine tuning afterwards and aligning on Yahoo! imagery)

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism or 'where is cuba?'

[Martijn Verwijmeren]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:50:34 +
Ludwig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -- first all make a bulk move more difficult, so it cannot be executed
 unless intended to.

How recent is your copy of JOSM? Somewhere in the last month it was made
more difficult to accidentally move objects in JOSM.


m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism or 'where is cuba?'

[OJ W]

Is it still possible to move an entire object in JOSM, or is it now limited
to one node at a time?

On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Martijn Verwijmeren [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:50:34 +
 Ludwig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -- first all make a bulk move more difficult, so it cannot be executed
  unless intended to.

 How recent is your copy of JOSM? Somewhere in the last month it was made
 more difficult to accidentally move objects in JOSM.


 m.v.g.,
 Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism or 'where is cuba?'

[Ludwig]

The version I downloaded three days ago still allows to move entire ways --
and indeed will do if you press the cursor keys while a way is selected.

Ludwig

On 04/03/2008, OJ W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Is it still possible to move an entire object in JOSM, or is it now
 limited to one node at a time?

 On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Martijn Verwijmeren [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:50:34 +
  Ludwig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   -- first all make a bulk move more difficult, so it cannot be executed
   unless intended to.
 
  How recent is your copy of JOSM? Somewhere in the last month it was made
  more difficult to accidentally move objects in JOSM.
 
 
  m.v.g.,
  Cartinus
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] vandalism or 'where is cuba?'

[graham]

I know it seems unlikely, but I guess there is no proof that it is not 
an accident rather than deliberate vandalism?

Graham

micha ruh wrote:
 Hi OSM,
 
 just after I finished traceing the coastline of the port of Havanna, 
 Cuba i noticed oddly looking
 clusters of untagged nodes in the city. humm.. Nodes placed at 
 intersections looks reasonable,
 but where are the ways? humm.. Time to test the Undo-Feature of potlach: 
 'U' is the key to press.
 
 Result:
 Hahaha! Nice! A red coastline appears!   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 It looks like the whole coastline of cuba has been deleted, surely some 
 streets in Havanna also.
 Should I fix it? - No, it certainly gets deleted again.
 
 
  WHAT SHALL WE DO?
 
 
 P.S. For those who don't know where Havanna actually is (or should be):
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.13471lon=-82.36712zoom=15 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.13471lon=-82.36712zoom=15
 
 
 Gruess,
  Micha^bass
 
 
 
 
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[OSM-talk] vandalism or 'where is cuba?'

[micha ruh]

Hi OSM,

just after I finished traceing the coastline of the port of Havanna, Cuba i
noticed oddly looking
clusters of untagged nodes in the city. humm.. Nodes placed at intersections
looks reasonable,
but where are the ways? humm.. Time to test the Undo-Feature of potlach: 'U'
is the key to press.

Result:
Hahaha! Nice! A red coastline appears!   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It looks like the whole coastline of cuba has been deleted, surely some
streets in Havanna also.
Should I fix it? - No, it certainly gets deleted again.


 WHAT SHALL WE DO?


P.S. For those who don't know where Havanna actually is (or should be):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=23.13471lon=-82.36712zoom=15


Gruess,
 Micha^bass
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