Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Dear Roland,

I understood well the idea about an external tool and its availability 
in the long run. It makes good sense. I would like just to mention that 
Wikipedia articles change their titles at the drop of a hat.


Wikidata items also change sometimes, but I have never encountered it 
personally. Wikidata items' titles seems to be more stable than 
Wikipedia articles' titles. Wikipedia articles are basically just HTML 
pages for reading by humans.


One more consideration, - it is possible to create a Wikipedia article 
only of a notable object, i.e. if there are several published articles 
or books about it. It is easier to create a Wikidata item (or Wikimedia 
category), than a Wikipedia article.


I mentioned already in this discussion that I could well create the 
Wikidata item (and Wikimedia category) for the historic Yellow Quarry 
(fr. Carrière Jaune) https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62083763 , but I 
still cannot create the Wikipedia article, because I cannot find so far 
any reliable article-worthy sources.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 4/18/19 22:02, Roland Olbricht wrote:

Dear Andy,

I would like to use a metaphor:

If I had known that the captain of the Titanic considered the ship
unsinkable then I had not boarded the ship.
Not so much because I had been interested in the captain's belief but
because believing to be unsinkable is way too little for a contingency 
plan.


The contingency plan for OpenStreetMap is that everyone can still edit
the map even if the main database were the only website of the world
that is still available. This works well with a "wikipedia" tag: An
average person can, from the wording of the page title, still predict
whether an object in question qualifies for that tag or not, without the
article available at all.

This does not work with a wikidata tag.
Without the Wikidata server up and availble the tag is a random number 
only.


I'm not talking about who has the most reliable server here.
In practice the things that happen (and all actually have happened in
one form or another):
- A provider blocks the IP address block of a particular site because of
a policy on an adjacent IP address
- HTTPS is used and the browser or the client's library does not trust
the certificate or has a conflicting policy
- A misconfigured carrier grade NAT makes the address inaccessible
- Wikipedia or other services distinct from openstreetmap.org go on 
strike

- a site starts to apply or substantially reduces quotas

I do not presume the Wikidata servers had failed or to do in the
forseeable future. Serious issues always come from an unexpected
direction. The engineers of the Titanic have taken precaution for many
many things and probably simply never thought about icebergs, or not
hard enough. So please do not try to discuss the issues away.

It is nowadays an engenering virtue to decouple things enough to keep
each of the parts as simple as possible. That has saved both many lifes
as well as trillions of dollars.

That said, the free-form tagging paradigm means that it may or may not
been acceptable to add tags in addition to tags understandable without
the help of any external tool.  However, it is destructive to replace
tags understandable without any external tools with tags that require
external tools, i.e. to remove wikipedia tags in favour of wikidata tags.

Best regards,

Roland


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Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Roland Olbricht]

Dear Andy,

I would like to use a metaphor:

If I had known that the captain of the Titanic considered the ship
unsinkable then I had not boarded the ship.
Not so much because I had been interested in the captain's belief but
because believing to be unsinkable is way too little for a contingency plan.

The contingency plan for OpenStreetMap is that everyone can still edit
the map even if the main database were the only website of the world
that is still available. This works well with a "wikipedia" tag: An
average person can, from the wording of the page title, still predict
whether an object in question qualifies for that tag or not, without the
article available at all.

This does not work with a wikidata tag.
Without the Wikidata server up and availble the tag is a random number only.

I'm not talking about who has the most reliable server here.
In practice the things that happen (and all actually have happened in
one form or another):
- A provider blocks the IP address block of a particular site because of
a policy on an adjacent IP address
- HTTPS is used and the browser or the client's library does not trust
the certificate or has a conflicting policy
- A misconfigured carrier grade NAT makes the address inaccessible
- Wikipedia or other services distinct from openstreetmap.org go on strike
- a site starts to apply or substantially reduces quotas

I do not presume the Wikidata servers had failed or to do in the
forseeable future. Serious issues always come from an unexpected
direction. The engineers of the Titanic have taken precaution for many
many things and probably simply never thought about icebergs, or not
hard enough. So please do not try to discuss the issues away.

It is nowadays an engenering virtue to decouple things enough to keep
each of the parts as simple as possible. That has saved both many lifes
as well as trillions of dollars.

That said, the free-form tagging paradigm means that it may or may not
been acceptable to add tags in addition to tags understandable without
the help of any external tool.  However, it is destructive to replace
tags understandable without any external tools with tags that require
external tools, i.e. to remove wikipedia tags in favour of wikidata tags.

Best regards,

Roland


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[OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 14:06, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:

> I created the Wikidata item (and the Commons category) for
> the medieval quarry Carrière Jaune (eng. Yellow Quarry):
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/158798757
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62083763

> Via this Wikidata link people can view the ground and aerial photos of
> this absolutely magnificent medieval quarry and even read the basic
> historical information on the photo of the information board.

In time, they will also be able to call up a list of buildings,
bridges, statues and other objects made using stone from the quarry;
and any artworks depicting them or the quarry itself.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 09:28, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> The general mindset of the Wikidata adherent is

At what point did we appoint you our spokesman?

> that every
> machine-readable link between obejcts or concepts improves the overall
> quality and usefulness of the data set, whether or not a concrete use
> case exists at this point in time or not.

There is always a concrete use case.

> However, the ferocity and scope with which Wikidata links are forced on
> us

"forced"?

> are a concern for me.

> We end up with tons of extra tags that add zero
> extra information and complicate the world for mappers.

There are zero Wikidata tags that add zero information

> And I'm not even talking about our own wiki where they've started to
> wikidatify our tags as well.

That's no more true than saying wiki.openstreetmap.org is "Wikipediafied".

You're confusing the use of Wikibase software with Wikidata.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 18, 2019, 12:05 AM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 22:40, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> Note that almost always this tags are added based on name tag.
>>
>
> Perhaps, but even then they can disambiguate outlets with the same
> name but different owners.
>
Not in cases of running fully automated edits that consider solely name tag and 
sometimes also shop type.

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[OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 22:40, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Apr 17, 2019, 11:19 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:
>
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 21:03, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:

> I do not consider the loss of potentially-useful data to be "lucky".
>
> I am not aware about even single case where brand:wikipedia
> or brand:wikidata is useful.

I am happy to take your word for that.

However, that lack of awareness on your part is not evidence of
absence of usefulness to others.

> Note that almost always this tags are added based on name tag.

Perhaps, but even then they can disambiguate outlets with the same
name but different owners.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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