Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
I am not local, but just my two cents: I agree with Andrew that such specific state-wide rules (or exceptions to the rules) should be tagged as a single regional default, and highway features should have generic tags (unless there are relevant signage and routes, obviously), especially since those rules might change in the future. The data consumers not using the data how it should be used shouldn't force us to create a big maintenance overhead. Cheers On 8/4/22 19:05, Andy Townsend wrote: On 08/04/2022 06:31, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 14:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 12:50, Andrew Harvey wrote: I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just have no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional defaults. What would that do to bike routing? Well your router would need to look up the specific default whether that's something in the routing engine configuration, pulled from the OSM wiki, or pulled from the Victoria state relation def:* tags. Which, practically speaking, will never happen. In OSM terms, that's very much "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of The Leopard'"** Best Regards, Andy ** Douglas Adams, of course. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
> (Personally I do have a whole bunch of country, state and even > county-specific adaptions for cycle.travel's routing, but I'm very aware > that I'm the outlier. And I've never even heard of "def:*" tags.) > For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2316593 has def:highway=footway;access:bicycle=no best documentation I could find was https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Defaults so not a very well developed tag but is in use in some places. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
Andrew Harvey wrote: > Well your router would need to look up the specific default whether > that's something in the routing engine configuration, pulled from > the OSM wiki, or pulled from the Victoria state relation def:* tags. With the best will in the world, that's not going to happen. I can point you to a well-known bike routing app that has 75+ employees, was backed by a government funding office to the tune of seven figures, and has an install base of millions, and yet it still gets path access across the UK very very wrong because (basically) it applies German defaults. So the idea that every single router is going to write state-specific processing is unrealistic, I'm afraid, whatever you think _should_ happen. (Personally I do have a whole bunch of country, state and even county-specific adaptions for cycle.travel's routing, but I'm very aware that I'm the outlier. And I've never even heard of "def:*" tags.) Richard ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On 08/04/2022 06:31, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 14:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 12:50, Andrew Harvey wrote: I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just have no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional defaults. What would that do to bike routing? Well your router would need to look up the specific default whether that's something in the routing engine configuration, pulled from the OSM wiki, or pulled from the Victoria state relation def:* tags. Which, practically speaking, will never happen. In OSM terms, that's very much "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of The Leopard'"** Best Regards, Andy ** Douglas Adams, of course. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On Apr 7, 2022, at 10:31 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote: > Well your router would need to look up the specific default whether that's > something in the routing engine configuration, pulled from the OSM wiki, or > pulled from the Victoria state relation def:* tags. Right, I agree: that's part of the "hm, what is really being 'meant' in this (regional) context?" question that happens at the downstream use case of "this set of tags on this way / this relation context..." means THIS. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 14:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 12:50, Andrew Harvey > wrote: > >> >> I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just >> have no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional >> defaults. >> > > What would that do to bike routing? > Well your router would need to look up the specific default whether that's something in the routing engine configuration, pulled from the OSM wiki, or pulled from the Victoria state relation def:* tags. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On Apr 7, 2022, at 9:53 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just have > no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional defaults. > > What would that do to bike routing? There is bicycle infrastructure tagging (like cycleway=lane and even bicycle=yes) on a way (sometimes on a node, like amenity=bicycle_parking) and there is bicycle route tagging (like type=route, route=bicycle, network=rcn) on a relation. These are related (the former should be elements properly tagged in the latter, but if not, it isn't strictly wrong in some cases), but they are independent. I think what Andrew H. means by "regional defaults" is to allow the "laws in reality on the ground at the time of the data consumer consuming" combined with whatever tags there are in OSM to "rule," and "proceed accordingly." Yes, it is nice when everything is tidily tagged as it truly exists in reality and these infrastructure elements are "properly" tied together into a cohesive networks in a local, regional, national and international scheme, rendering in renderers that pay attention to this tagging and display appropriately. (And additional tags like cycle_network=* even go further to acknowledge what the specific network actually IS at a given level, too). OSM's data isn't like this all over Earth, but there are places (Europe, USA, some countries in Asia, Australia is getting better...) where it is more and more complete. Especially the complexities of international bicycle networks like EuroVelo at the network=icn level, combined with a rich mountain biking network (route=mtb, not route=bicycle, especially in the Alps and Germany, Switzerland and BeNeLux countries), Europe really shines here. But it does kind of fall down with implementation of cycle_network=*, but even that gets better (slowly), where the USA and other countries have "OK or even decent" tagging. Even more complex bicycle (route, especially) tagging has recently been proposed and is both underway and being restructured in newer tagging Proposals. So it depends on what you mean by "bike routing." Bike infrastructure tagging: that's what's being discussed, and it seems to be a fuzzy-one-way-vs.-another legal cleaving based on how laws get interpreted. A "solution" like what Andrew H. suggests can "kick the can down the road," though actually the approach of "let the data consumer make assumptions about this or that given being a particular region" isn't wholly wrong, either. There is an "effort expended (invested) equals value derived" equation to be understood here. Then, hit the sweet spot. Repeat, and pretty soon we're all winners with the data being a small investment (in correctness, because Oz agrees "this is how we do it here") and the value gained being "hey, bicycle routing around here makes a lot of sense!" It can be done. There's plenty of complexity here, but it can be teased apart, especially when there are pockets of both better and not-so-good tagging in a big country like you've got there, and you can say "this method is more complete, effecting an emergence on how we want to do this in Australia in a manner that is well on the way to being fully 'done' here." That way, a comparison "towards the better" (method of tagging that has already become established in that "neck of the woods") can show where there are deficiencies in tagging that need some boosting-to-better. Make a sub-project out of "bettering the deficiencies" and boom, biking is better. This works for anything in OSM, really. For footpaths and bicycles on footpath law, there's lots of how the rest of the world does this. Take a look at our wiki, fashion existing tags to work for Oz (or rework them so they do, if required) and agree amongst yourself. I know I'm both telling people what they already know and that it isn't always easy or non-messy to "agree amongst yourselves," but that's OSM. You gotta roll up your sleeves, talk to each other, agree, and tag accordingly. Not necessarily in that order. Thanks for reading. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 12:50, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just > have no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional > defaults. > What would that do to bike routing? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Tagging bicycle on footpath laws Was: Re: HighRouleur edits
On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 07:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 17:54, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Bicycles are allowed on footpaths in Victoria . . . >> > > Which, to me, means that all footpaths should be bike=yes, as "some" > people are allowed to ride on them, unless they are specifically signed as > bike=no. > I think this is getting too much into mapping regulations, we could just have no bicycle tag and leave it to data consumers to apply the regional defaults. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
