Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping of bilingual destination signs

[Matthew Darwin]

Thanks J.P.

If at some point there is a more clear boundary maybe someone could 
update the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_Brunswick to 
give the rest of us more clear guidance.



On 2017-10-03 12:16 AM, J.P. Kirby wrote:

On 2017-10-03, at 12:33 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:


Hi J.P.

This sounds reasonable.  Do we have a map that shows which areas of the 
province are French area vs English area.  For us non-NBers.   Or I suppose one 
could guess by looking at the existing tags there.  (I would assume Fredericton 
is English area?)  If we have a list then could update the NB wiki page. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_Brunswick

The general rule is that southern and western NB is English, northern and 
eastern is French; but there are exceptions, and a couple places like Bathurst 
and Campbellton are 50/50.

But yes, you can almost always tell from the tags and the street names themselves (e.g. "St. 
Mary's" vs "Sainte-Marie").

JPK


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Re: [Talk-ca] Mapping of bilingual destination signs

[Matthew Darwin]

Should we follow the convention that the local language does not need 
a language tag and the alternate language does.  So for Fredericton 
(or Ottawa), it is


destination=New Maryland
destination:street:fr=Rue Regent Sud
destination:street=Regent Street South
destination:ref=101 South

This way existing renderers that don't understand the language 
extension continue to work.


On 2017-10-09 03:52 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

Hi all,

I contacted the most active mappers in NB. It seems that mapping 
bilingual street destinations with destination:street:fr and 
destination:street:en respectively is an acceptable solution. So the 
exit way related to the image in our ticket 
(https://github.com/TelenavMapping/mapping-projects/issues/27) would 
be mapped as:


destination=New Maryland
destination:street:fr=Rue Regent Sud
destination:street:en=Regent Street South
destination:ref=101 South

(just destination tags, ignoring the other tags obviously needed)

As promised, I will update the OSM wiki to clarify the 
destination:street tagging some.


Does this sound okay to you?

Thanks for all your feedback.
Martijn


On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Martijn van Exel > wrote:


Hi all,

Thanks all for your input. I get a sense that there is a
preference for separating out the names on these destination
signs in separate language tags, even though documentation for
destination:street is sparse. To be sure I contacted what I hope
are the top mappers in NB. A list of mappers I contacted and the
message I sent is in the github ticket
(https://github.com/TelenavMapping/mapping-projects/issues/27
).
This is based on the Pascal Neis web site
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc
 .

It would be nice to update the NB wiki page with a French /
English map but I will leave that to the experts.

I will try and clarify the destination:street documentation on
the wiki next week.

Martijn

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:16 PM, J.P. Kirby
> wrote:


On 2017-10-03, at 12:33 AM, Matthew Darwin
> wrote:

> Hi J.P.
>
> This sounds reasonable.  Do we have a map that shows which
areas of the province are French area vs English area.  For
us non-NBers.  Or I suppose one could guess by looking at
the existing tags there.  (I would assume Fredericton is
English area?)  If we have a list then could update the NB
wiki page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New_Brunswick


The general rule is that southern and western NB is English,
northern and eastern is French; but there are exceptions,
and a couple places like Bathurst and Campbellton are 50/50.

But yes, you can almost always tell from the tags and the
street names themselves (e.g. "St. Mary's" vs "Sainte-Marie").

JPK


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[Talk-ca] Disconnected addresses

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi all,

Matthew Darwin pointed out on Github that some street name updates by the
Telenav team lead to 'orphaned' address nodes. The ticket is here:
https://github.com/TelenavMapping/mapping-projects/issues/34

This is just to let you know that we are aware and planning to fix soonest.

Thanks and my apologies. Let us know if you encountered this anywhere else.

Martijn
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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Thank you.
Lets finish this assignment and then regroup to discuss whether or not this
should be done again next year, and if so the best way to do it.

The students will need to put together a small reflection piece on the
process, that should help.  We will have identified numerous issues and
error types, and we will have learned something about students and the OSM
community.

I am travelling quite a bit this month, if I am here I will attend the next
local.  Please let me know when and where they are.

Cheerio
Tracey

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, James  wrote:

> I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map
> an african village.
>
> The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
> items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
> Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in
> OSM
> They are supposed to learn about deriving information from
> something(photo, text,etc)
>
> As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some new
> mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at one
> point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
> feedback; all the better.
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>>
>> There are a number of issues here.
>>
>> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
>> edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
>> taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
>> once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
>> there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
>> them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
>> costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
>> before the errors are cleared.
>>
>> Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
>> Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
>> looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
>> organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
>> within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
>> Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
>> mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
>> quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
>> the survey.
>>
>> Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
>> it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
>> within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
>> tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
>> City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road
>> junctions and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have
>> slopes rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the
>> edge of the sidewalk is for a blind person.
>>
>> In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
>> project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
>> information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
>> small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
>> mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
>> a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
>> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
>> ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
>> Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
>> the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
>> some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
>> tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
>> http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.
>>
>> It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
>> project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
>> the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
>> that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
>> adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
>> prone.
>>
>> I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
>> OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
>> rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map an
african village.

The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in OSM
They are supposed to learn about deriving information from something(photo,
text,etc)

As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some new
mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at one
point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
feedback; all the better.

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>
> There are a number of issues here.
>
> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
> edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
> taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
> once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
> there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
> them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
> costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
> before the errors are cleared.
>
> Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
> Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
> looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
> organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
> within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
> Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
> mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
> quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
> the survey.
>
> Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
> it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
> within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
> tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
> City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road junctions
> and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have slopes
> rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the edge of
> the sidewalk is for a blind person.
>
> In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
> project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
> information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
> small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
> mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
> a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
> ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
> Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
> the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
> some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
> tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
> http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.
>
> It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
> project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
> the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
> that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
> adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
> prone.
>
> I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
> OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
> rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
>
>
> On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>>
>>
>>
>> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>>
>> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>>
>> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
>> anything to do with the assignment).
>>
>> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few
>> general comments
>>
>> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
>> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
>> Most of the time 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[john whelan]

This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.

There are a number of issues here.

First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
before the errors are cleared.

Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
the survey.

Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road junctions
and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have slopes
rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the edge of
the sidewalk is for a blind person.

In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.

It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
prone.

I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.

Cheerio John




On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>
>
>
> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>
>
>
> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>
> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>
> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
> anything to do with the assignment).
>
> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few general
> comments
>
> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
> Most of the time someone will just fix them without saying anything.
> However if 30 or 300 users make lots of changes in a short amount of time
> with the same types of errors the volume present challenges.  Large scale
> edits by a bunch who are doing it as part of a course, or who are employed
> by a company to make the changes, or who are doing so as part of a
> coordinated humanitarian effort have the potential to cause problems if
> they aren't coordinated  carefully.
>
>
> 2. A big part of working in any open-source project particularly with OSM
> is that you need to communicate with the other contributors. Communication
> is a two way street, some people are better at it then others and it
> doesn't come naturally to everyone.  I would hope that a course that
> covered the contributing to open source projects (including open data
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

Hi Tracey, as promised I started some documentation on what errors I'm
seeing quite often. I will be updating it later during my lunch hour with
more examples:
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A/issues/19

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Steve Singer  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>
>
>
> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>
>
>
> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>
> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>
> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
> anything to do with the assignment).
>
> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few general
> comments
>
> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
> Most of the time someone will just fix them without saying anything.
> However if 30 or 300 users make lots of changes in a short amount of time
> with the same types of errors the volume present challenges.  Large scale
> edits by a bunch who are doing it as part of a course, or who are employed
> by a company to make the changes, or who are doing so as part of a
> coordinated humanitarian effort have the potential to cause problems if
> they aren't coordinated  carefully.
>
>
> 2. A big part of working in any open-source project particularly with OSM
> is that you need to communicate with the other contributors. Communication
> is a two way street, some people are better at it then others and it
> doesn't come naturally to everyone.  I would hope that a course that
> covered the contributing to open source projects (including open data
> contributions) covered interacting with the community. If the course only
> wanted to give students experience with the tools then editing against a
> test or development instance of OSM would be better.
>
> The advise I would give to people new to the open source communities(and
> at times remind veterans) is believe that most people who are contributing
> are coming from a place of good intentions and to give them the benefit of
> the doubt and try to understand where they are coming from.
>
> When contributing to an open sourced project you need to take
> responsibility (as an individual) for your contributions but that doesn't
> mean they need to be, or will be perfect. No edits are perfect but people
> need to be willing to listen to and learn from feedback from other members
> of the community.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to
>> OSM.
>>
>> There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of
>> your members that is circulating
>> through the administration from (james2...@gmail.com).
>>
>> The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here -
>> https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A
>>
>> I understand that the students are making some small and some large
>> mistakes that may not meet your OSM
>> data quality standards.  The students are restricted to only be mapping
>> the Carleton University Campus.
>>
>> I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them
>> finish the assignment.  They should
>> be done by next week. There are 150 students.  Once the assignment is
>> complete I would gladly work with you
>> to salvage the data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of
>> the data.
>>
>> We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic
>> and allow for the assignment to be
>> completed so that the students can be assessed.
>>
>> Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify
>> them we may be able to fix them.
>>
>> Sincerely
>> Tracey
>>
>> --
>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>
>> Assistant Professor Critical Media Studies and Big Data
>> Communication Studies
>> School of Journalism and Communication
>> Suite 4110, River Building
>> Carleton University
>> 1125 Colonel By Drive
>> Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6
>> 1-613-520-2600 x7443
>> tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
>> @TraceyLauriault
>> Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
>> https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/
>>
>>
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