Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Warin]

On 19-Dec-17 05:42 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:

18.12.2017 19:14, Frederik Ramm пишет:

Hi,

On 12/18/2017 03:09 PM, SK53 wrote:

Personally, I'd also be chary of turning OSM into a repository of
scraped data rather than one of surveyed geodata.


And more: the more imports you do, the more OpenStreetMap becomes an IT
project where computer nerds script, collect, convert, conflate, and
interpolate away, instead of a project where all sorts of people from
all walks of life contribute their knowledge.

I think we're not an IT project, and that's good.


We are partly an IT project, which you cannot take away. Also, the 
number and size of imports does not affect how OSM is perceived.


For example, OSMers map very few POIs (relatively), and after they do, 
they update virtually zero of them. Not counting a few active mappers 
in UK and Germany.


To think that you can import everything is to overstate the quantity 
of open data in the world. Open data is mostly points of interest. In 
some countries it's also roads. And that's all. OSM is so much bigger 
than that.


As for importing POIs, I think that needs to be done, because no 
mapper group would be able to map all fuel station, all Tesco shops, 
or all museums. And if they do, in ten years, but that time half of 
what they've collected will be obsolete. The choice is not between 
manual mapping and importing, it's between importing and not having 
the data ever.


And since there isn't open data on everything, even if you import all 
POIs you can possibly have in machine-readable format, that will still 
be at most 10% of all POIs, even in UK or Germany. Plenty to map by 
going outside.


So even an army of IT folks armed with data scrapers and contracts 
with every data aggregator would be no match to common mappers, armed 
with a pen and a camera. I fail to see what you're afraid of.


Two divergent points of view if you go to the extremes. Here are some 
extremes;



A) Only physically survey data is for OSM.
Not possible to physically survey some things like National Park 
boundaries in Australia -  where they are marked the marks are well 
inside the actual boundary. A physical survey will result in large errors.

B) Only open data is to be used.
Some of this is out of data - an on the ground physical survey will 
confirm it.


The best for me is a mix of sources, with a preference for the on the 
ground physical survey. However I can map a lot more area from open 
source data quickly and accurately that I can from a physical survey. In 
some cases of tree cover or GPS reflections, satellite imagery is more 
accurate that GPS surveys. So a mix of sources for me.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Ilya Zverev]

18.12.2017 19:14, Frederik Ramm пишет:

Hi,

On 12/18/2017 03:09 PM, SK53 wrote:

Personally, I'd also be chary of turning OSM into a repository of
scraped data rather than one of surveyed geodata.


And more: the more imports you do, the more OpenStreetMap becomes an IT
project where computer nerds script, collect, convert, conflate, and
interpolate away, instead of a project where all sorts of people from
all walks of life contribute their knowledge.

I think we're not an IT project, and that's good.


We are partly an IT project, which you cannot take away. Also, the 
number and size of imports does not affect how OSM is perceived.


For example, OSMers map very few POIs (relatively), and after they do, 
they update virtually zero of them. Not counting a few active mappers in 
UK and Germany.


To think that you can import everything is to overstate the quantity of 
open data in the world. Open data is mostly points of interest. In some 
countries it's also roads. And that's all. OSM is so much bigger than that.


As for importing POIs, I think that needs to be done, because no mapper 
group would be able to map all fuel station, all Tesco shops, or all 
museums. And if they do, in ten years, but that time half of what 
they've collected will be obsolete. The choice is not between manual 
mapping and importing, it's between importing and not having the data ever.


And since there isn't open data on everything, even if you import all 
POIs you can possibly have in machine-readable format, that will still 
be at most 10% of all POIs, even in UK or Germany. Plenty to map by 
going outside.


So even an army of IT folks armed with data scrapers and contracts with 
every data aggregator would be no match to common mappers, armed with a 
pen and a camera. I fail to see what you're afraid of.


Ilya


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[Talk-GB] OpenRailwayMap

[Paul Berry]

A nice little social media boost courtesy of Tim Dunn:
https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/942751174922555393

There's an Open Railway Map of the world and the level of detail is
incredible http://www.openrailwaymap.org/  

Regards,
*Paul*
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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] "Secret" nuclear bunkers under London and Birmingham

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

It depends on the license of the data and if it's a trusted source (if data
is reliable).

--
 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo
from my mobile 

El 17/12/2017 13:33, "Andy Mabbett"  escribió:

> We all know, I expect, about the Anchor Exchange[1] in Birmingham, and
> the Kingsway Exchange[2], in London, but this blog post[3] has maps
> and geo-data (Land Registry INDEX Inspire polygons) for both, that
> I've not seen before.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_telephone_exchange
>
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsway_telephone_exchange
>
> [3] https://whoownsengland.org/2017/12/15/how-land-registry-
> data-reveals-londons-secret-tunnels/
>
> Can we import the data?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 12/18/2017 03:09 PM, SK53 wrote:
> Personally, I'd also be chary of turning OSM into a repository of
> scraped data rather than one of surveyed geodata.

And more: the more imports you do, the more OpenStreetMap becomes an IT
project where computer nerds script, collect, convert, conflate, and
interpolate away, instead of a project where all sorts of people from
all walks of life contribute their knowledge.

I think we're not an IT project, and that's good.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Gregrs]

Hi Paul,

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 01:15:08PM +, paulmgill...@gmail.com wrote:

If store data can be pulled from directly from a company's public 
facing website ('store finder' page) is there any reason we can't do 
such imports without discussion with/permission from the company 
concerned?


I believe the problem is licencing. Just because the data is publicly 
accessible on a company's website doesn't mean that it has been released 
under a licence compatible with that of OpenStreetMap. In practice I 
would imagine that most companies would be pleased to have the locations 
of their stores/branches on OpenStreetMap, but another issue is that 
some of the data might be derived from other sources such as a Royal 
Mail database.


Thanks,
Greg

--
Twitter: @gregrs_uk
http://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org
PGP key ID: 64907C8A
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Tom Hughes]

On 18/12/17 13:15, paulmgill...@gmail.com wrote:


Reading all the talk of Walmart and Shell imports recently got me to wondering 
why we can't be doing more of this kind of thing.

If store data can be pulled from directly from a company's public facing 
website ('store finder' page) is there any reason we can't do such imports 
without discussion with/permission from the company concerned?


Just a small thing called copyright and/or database right.

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[Dan S]

Hi,

People have mentioned this before. The conversation usually then goes
to copyright (and the question of whether simple facts (such as
addresses, opening hours etc) can be copyrighted), then in fact it's
database rights that are probably the main barrier.* I'm not central
to all of this, nor a lawyer, but I'd say it's definitely not clear
that it's OK, and thus inappropriate to scrape such information
without explicit permission from the institutions concerned. But then,
getting permission, checking the data, taking it step by step, seems
like a positive thing to be doing. Just my 2p though!

Dan


* see eg https://www.out-law.com/page-5698

2017-12-18 13:15 GMT+00:00  :
> Hi,
>
> Reading all the talk of Walmart and Shell imports recently got me to 
> wondering why we can't be doing more of this kind of thing.
>
> If store data can be pulled from directly from a company's public facing 
> website ('store finder' page) is there any reason we can't do such imports 
> without discussion with/permission from the company concerned?
>
> Paul
>
> ___
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[Talk-GB] Importing Website Data

[paulmgillard]

Hi,

Reading all the talk of Walmart and Shell imports recently got me to wondering 
why we can't be doing more of this kind of thing.

If store data can be pulled from directly from a company's public facing 
website ('store finder' page) is there any reason we can't do such imports 
without discussion with/permission from the company concerned? 

Paul

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