Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Lester Caine]

On 17/11/2018 17:26, Colin Smale wrote:
Surely the infrastructure network is a different concept to the train 
network?

The UK overland railway network is managed and owned by network rail.


How about this for a thought:

For the trains, a network might be linked to a brand; An operator may 
have distinct branding for commuter services, intercity services and 
freight operations giving three different "networks." All the services 
within a network will be integrated in terms of scheduling and other 
planning, whereas coordination with other networks is a whole different 
can of worms. If there is just one big team doing the planning, then 
it's one network. If the planning is done reasonably autonomously, then 
they are different networks.

All investment in the overland rail structure is via Network Rail

Is "London Overground" a separate "network" to the Underground? Is the 
DLR a separate network? Instinctively I would say yes to both of these, 
from both a train service point of view and from an infrastructure point 
of view. Pleased to hear arguments to the contrary though.


There are other networks such as the such as Midland Metro, Dockland 
Light Railway and London Underground as well as other metro/tram 
networks. These tend to be owned and run by local transport authorities. 
Transport for West Midlands for Midlands Metro and TFL Transport for 
London for DLR and London Underground. These manage both the rolling 
stock and the tracks while Network Rail does not actually own any 
rolling stock - as far as I am aware - except perhaps for maintenance 
vehicles, although I would not be surprised if the maintenance companies 
owned them!


So DLT has a network=Transport for London and an operator=Transport for 
London ... in my book. The other metro lines are similarly owned and 
operated.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Colin Smale]

Surely the infrastructure network is a different concept to the train
network? 

How about this for a thought: 

For the trains, a network might be linked to a brand; An operator may
have distinct branding for commuter services, intercity services and
freight operations giving three different "networks." All the services
within a network will be integrated in terms of scheduling and other
planning, whereas coordination with other networks is a whole different
can of worms. If there is just one big team doing the planning, then
it's one network. If the planning is done reasonably autonomously, then
they are different networks.

Is "London Overground" a separate "network" to the Underground? Is the
DLR a separate network? Instinctively I would say yes to both of these,
from both a train service point of view and from an infrastructure point
of view. Pleased to hear arguments to the contrary though. 

On 2018-11-17 16:17, Lester Caine wrote:

> On 17/11/2018 14:46, David Woolley wrote: On 17/11/18 14:36, Lester Caine 
> wrote: Who operates the station, and who operates on each line accessing that 
> station. The various ID's would help keep this data up to date. 
> You need to distinguish between operating the line and operating services 
> over that line.

On the lines ...
network='operating the line'
operator='operating services over that line'

Stations will also have
operator='station services'

I think 'National Rail' does not fit either of those definitions? So
network=Network Rail ... or one of the Metro services?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Richard Fairhurst]

TonyS wrote:
> Lot of the obscurity is caused by the contracts from Department 
> For Transport. Merseyrail is both a train operating company 
> and a commuter rail network in and around Liverpool City Region

Indeed, and it's actually even more nuanced than that.

Merseyrail is not a franchise like, say, Chiltern Railways or GWR or Virgin.
It's a concession. In other words, the operation is directed by Merseytravel
(the publicly owned transport authority); day-to-day running is carried out
by the concession holders, Serco/Abellio; and the publicly owned Merseyrail
brand is used.

This means that there is a distinct identity to Merseyrail stations and
services, just as there is with London Overground (the only other such
concession). They are not, primarily, directed by the Department for
Transport.

With this in mind, I agree that network=Merseyrail is entirely justifiable.
(For Lime Street you'd probably want the high-level station as
network=National Rail, the low-level as Merseyrail; for other stations where
non-Merseyrail services also call, you might want semicolon-separated
values.)

Richard



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[Talk-GB] Pub dress codes and "no swearing" rules

[Andy Townsend]

 As I write this, I'm sat in a Sam Smith's pub.  As per other Sam Smith's pubs, it has big "no swearing policy" signs inside.  There's one use of "swearing" in OSM, but maybe there's another key I've not noticed?Likewise this pub has an "interesting" dress code (no trainers - but my grubby boots are ok apparently). There's a few uses of "dress_code" in taginfo, but I'm just wondering if I'm missing an obvious alternative key?Best Regards,Andy  ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Lester Caine]

On 17/11/2018 14:46, David Woolley wrote:

On 17/11/18 14:36, Lester Caine wrote:
Who operates the station, and who operates on each line accessing that 
station. The various ID's would help keep this data up to date.


You need to distinguish between operating the line and operating 
services over that line.


On the lines ...
network='operating the line'
operator='operating services over that line'

Stations will also have
operator='station services'

I think 'National Rail' does not fit either of those definitions? So 
network=Network Rail ... or one of the Metro services?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Lester Caine]

On 17/11/2018 10:02, Tony Shield wrote:
Ormskirk is a good case where Merseyrail manage the station - 
essentially the operator in OSM parlance.


I picked Ormskirk is it is the terminus for both Merseyrail and Northern 
services on that line. They terminate here as the Merseyrail line is 
electric and the Northern line is still served by diesel trains. I'm not 
sure today, but certainly originally the break was simply a buffer 
placed on the line ( must be 45 years sinse I was there last ;) ) which 
could be removed at some point to restore through running. Hence the 
suggestion that the line north be tagged with the operator=Northern, but 
as Michael suggested there may well be a case for multiple operator tags 
on the lines.


There is a good catalogue of data on the rail system, but I'm not sure 
it's all suitable to be used. It would be nice to see a 'UK' guide to 
tagging which covers all the options. Who operates the station, and who 
operates on each line accessing that station. The various ID's would 
help keep this data up to date.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[David Woolley]

In the UK, the rails may be operated by Network Rail, the platform by 
one train operating company and a particular train using that platform, 
by a different train operating company.


When you add rapid transit systems (incidentally, is Merseyrail really 
one of these, rather than part of National Rail?), you can have single 
stations that serve more than one network, where there is only a single 
operator for the whole station.  I believe Queen's Park in London is in 
that category.


On 17/11/18 10:08, Michael Collinson wrote:
Lester's comments look logical from a general perspective: 1 network 
(National Rail), 1+ operators (Merseyrail, Northern, ...). I'd expand a 
bit by saying the it IS possible to have both multiple networks and 
operators at the same transport point (rail/bus station/platform). I 
have local Swedish bus stops with 3+ networks: Stockholm SL 
bus/ferry/subway system, Uppsala UL bus system, private long distance 
networks and then specific operators such as Nobina and Arriva for, at 
least, specific routes with the Stockholm network. Fun.


Mike

On 2018-11-17 10:09, Lester Caine wrote:

On 17/11/2018 07:12, SK53 wrote:
I've just come across a large number of instances of network=Nation 
Rail on stations. Clearly this is a mistake, presumably National Rail 
is intended.


As the station concerned is heavily branded with Merseyrail my first 
instinct was to change the tag to this, but then I wondered if 
National Rail is more useful. Today a network=Merseyrail would be 
more useful to me because I have a day rover for that network.


I wonder what others think, and can we clean up the erroneous name?


Merseyrail is the operator rather than the network. The network is 
owned and managed by Network Rail. National Rail is simply a  club of 
operating companies and includes both Network Rail and Merseyrail. So 
every station should have an operator=xxx and network=Network Rail, 
but they should also have some tag to the other train operators using 
the network through the station if more than 'National Railway' member 
is using it. So Ormskirk Station 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/86878104#map=19/53.56928/-2.88114) 
for example needs an operator=merseyrail and *I* would prefer 
network=Network Rail. The line north should be tagged 
operator=Northern which would at least associate that fact with the 
station, but other stations may have more than one train operator 
using the track. Network Rail and National Rail is probably 
interchangable in the public mind, but freight services use the track 
and is not covered by National Rail, but it's unlike that stations 
like Ormskirk would have that problem ;)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Michael Booth]

If you look at the history of some stations, you'll see that about 6 
years ago this was corrected to National Rail but it was reverted soon 
after, e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1305070561/history 
Clearly "Nation Rail" is wrong so it should be fixed.


Perhaps this could be as part of a project to ensure all the stations 
are properly mapped.  Check that none are missing against the ORR list, 
checking there's no duplicate railway=station tags for the same feature, 
tag the building=train_station, add the operator, 3-letter station ref 
etc., also make sure the use of railway=halt v station is correct.


On 17/11/2018 07:12, SK53 wrote:
I've just come across a large number of instances of network=Nation 
Rail on stations. Clearly this is a mistake, presumably National Rail 
is intended.


As the station concerned is heavily branded with Merseyrail my first 
instinct was to change the tag to this, but then I wondered if 
National Rail is more useful. Today a network=Merseyrail would be more 
useful to me because I have a day rover for that network.


I wonder what others think, and can we clean up the erroneous name?

Jerry



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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Michael Collinson]

Lester's comments look logical from a general perspective: 1 network 
(National Rail), 1+ operators (Merseyrail, Northern, ...). I'd expand a 
bit by saying the it IS possible to have both multiple networks and 
operators at the same transport point (rail/bus station/platform). I 
have local Swedish bus stops with 3+ networks: Stockholm SL 
bus/ferry/subway system, Uppsala UL bus system, private long distance 
networks and then specific operators such as Nobina and Arriva for, at 
least, specific routes with the Stockholm network. Fun.


Mike

On 2018-11-17 10:09, Lester Caine wrote:

On 17/11/2018 07:12, SK53 wrote:
I've just come across a large number of instances of network=Nation 
Rail on stations. Clearly this is a mistake, presumably National Rail 
is intended.


As the station concerned is heavily branded with Merseyrail my first 
instinct was to change the tag to this, but then I wondered if 
National Rail is more useful. Today a network=Merseyrail would be 
more useful to me because I have a day rover for that network.


I wonder what others think, and can we clean up the erroneous name?


Merseyrail is the operator rather than the network. The network is 
owned and managed by Network Rail. National Rail is simply a  club of 
operating companies and includes both Network Rail and Merseyrail. So 
every station should have an operator=xxx and network=Network Rail, 
but they should also have some tag to the other train operators using 
the network through the station if more than 'National Railway' member 
is using it. So Ormskirk Station 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/86878104#map=19/53.56928/-2.88114) 
for example needs an operator=merseyrail and *I* would prefer 
network=Network Rail. The line north should be tagged 
operator=Northern which would at least associate that fact with the 
station, but other stations may have more than one train operator 
using the track. Network Rail and National Rail is probably 
interchangable in the public mind, but freight services use the track 
and is not covered by National Rail, but it's unlike that stations 
like Ormskirk would have that problem ;)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[David Woolley]

On 17/11/18 09:09, Lester Caine wrote:

The line north should be tagged operator=Northern


My understanding is that all tracks used for public rail services (but 
not metropolitan rapid transit systems), in the UK, are operated by 
Network Rail.  The train operating companies only operate the actual 
trains and many of the stations.


Certainly it is Network Rail that commissions all track and trackside 
maintenance.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Tony Shield]

Lot of the obscurity is caused by the contracts from Department For 
Transport. Wikipedia - *Merseyrail* is both a train operating company 
 (TOC) and a 
commuter rail 
 
network in and around Liverpool City Region 
.


Ormskirk is a good case where Merseyrail manage the station - 
essentially the operator in OSM parlance.


Liverpool Lime Street is managed by Network Rail - the company which 
owns the track and stations, and trains belonging to Merseyrail, 
Northern, Virgin, Est Midlands Trains and West Midlands Trains operate 
from here. It is also part of the Merseyrail Network (Wirral Line and 
City Line operated by Northern). OSM presently has Liverpool Lime Street 
as network=National Rail and  operator=National Rail.


In my view the OSM operator is the company which manages the station, 
the network for most stations in Merseyside is merseyrail, however if 
OSM allows there needs to be the ability to have several entries for 
network so allow for those train companies which operate from there. 
However maintenance then becomes an issue.


Another view is that as all of these stations in Merseyrail are part of 
the National Rail network and tickets are valid within and without the 
Merseyrail system the question becomes murky.


As Merseyrail is such a strong brand running to 2028 I think that 
network=Merseyrail is valid for Liverpool Lime Street, Ormskirk and 
stations served solely by Merseyrail .


Regards

Tony Shield (TonyS999)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Network tag on railway stations

[Lester Caine]

On 17/11/2018 07:12, SK53 wrote:
I've just come across a large number of instances of network=Nation Rail 
on stations. Clearly this is a mistake, presumably National Rail is 
intended.


As the station concerned is heavily branded with Merseyrail my first 
instinct was to change the tag to this, but then I wondered if National 
Rail is more useful. Today a network=Merseyrail would be more useful to 
me because I have a day rover for that network.


I wonder what others think, and can we clean up the erroneous name?


Merseyrail is the operator rather than the network. The network is owned 
and managed by Network Rail. National Rail is simply a  club of 
operating companies and includes both Network Rail and Merseyrail. So 
every station should have an operator=xxx and network=Network Rail, but 
they should also have some tag to the other train operators using the 
network through the station if more than 'National Railway' member is 
using it. So Ormskirk Station 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/86878104#map=19/53.56928/-2.88114) 
for example needs an operator=merseyrail and *I* would prefer 
network=Network Rail. The line north should be tagged operator=Northern 
which would at least associate that fact with the station, but other 
stations may have more than one train operator using the track. Network 
Rail and National Rail is probably interchangable in the public mind, 
but freight services use the track and is not covered by National Rail, 
but it's unlike that stations like Ormskirk would have that problem ;)


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