Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.10.2019 um 15:50 schrieb David Woolley:
> On 07/10/2019 14:23, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> The ONS website explicitly states that their postcode products are OGL
>
> The OGL only applies to the parts of the data that relevant government
> organisation has the ability to grant rights to.  It excepts "third
> party rights the Information Provider is not authorised to license;".
> As such being OGL doesn't meant that you have a right to any RM data
> it may contain.

It needs to pointed out that being sure that the dataset does not
contain 3rd party IP that can't be used on OGL terms is not just a
theoretical point, but one  that has happened in real life (for example
it is partially responsible for the failure of openaddresses.uk).

SImon

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.10.2019 um 15:50 schrieb David Woolley:
> On 07/10/2019 14:23, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> The ONS website explicitly states that their postcode products are OGL
>
> The OGL only applies to the parts of the data that relevant government
> organisation has the ability to grant rights to.  It excepts "third
> party rights the Information Provider is not authorised to license;".
> As such being OGL doesn't meant that you have a right to any RM data
> it may contain.

It needs to pointed out that being sure that the dataset does not
contain 3rd party IP that can't be used on OGL terms is not just a
theoretical point, but one  that has happened in real life (for example
it is partially responsible for the failure of openaddresses.uk).

SImon

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mark Goodge]

On 07/10/2019 14:50, David Woolley wrote:

On 07/10/2019 14:23, Mark Goodge wrote:

The ONS website explicitly states that their postcode products are OGL


The OGL only applies to the parts of the data that relevant government 
organisation has the ability to grant rights to.  It excepts "third 
party rights the Information Provider is not authorised to license;". As 
such being OGL doesn't meant that you have a right to any RM data it may 
contain.


Yes, but the ONS website licensing page lists the exceptions to OGL in 
its products. It is quite clear about the extent of OGL, and the data to 
which it does not apply. And it doesn't list the user type flag in 
postcode data as an exception. So, as far as ONS are concerned, the user 
type is OGL. That is the only valid conclusion from their wording.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[David Woolley]

On 07/10/2019 14:23, Mark Goodge wrote:

The ONS website explicitly states that their postcode products are OGL


The OGL only applies to the parts of the data that relevant government 
organisation has the ability to grant rights to.  It excepts "third 
party rights the Information Provider is not authorised to license;". 
As such being OGL doesn't meant that you have a right to any RM data it 
may contain.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mark Goodge]

On 07/10/2019 11:43, Simon Poole wrote:


Am 03.10.2019 um 10:26 schrieb Mark Goodge:


ONSPD solves this problem, because it includes the "large user" flag.



It's the nature of the beast that when we are discussing OGL licensed
datasets that when something turns up that was previously thought to be
part of a proprietary dataset all alarm bells go off. Do you know how
they derived that flag and if there is really no residual proprietary IP
from RM in the data?


The ONS website explicitly states that their postcode products are OGL, 
with the exception of NI postcodes (which need to be licensed separately 
from NI Land and Property Services).


https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/geography/licences

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[David Woolley]

On 07/10/2019 11:43, Simon Poole wrote:

It's the nature of the beast that when we are discussing OGL licensed
datasets that when something turns up that was previously thought to be
part of a proprietary dataset all alarm bells go off. Do you know how
they derived that flag and if there is really no residual proprietary IP
from RM in the data?


Something you have to consider is the threat to RM.  RM won't worry too 
much if they are not loosing revenue, but they probably make significant 
revenue from licensing the postcode database to commercial mapping 
services, so if OSM starts to effectively compete, RM may look rather 
closely at how OSM sourced its postcode data.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Simon Poole]

Am 03.10.2019 um 10:26 schrieb Mark Goodge:
>
> ONSPD solves this problem, because it includes the "large user" flag.
>
>
It's the nature of the beast that when we are discussing OGL licensed
datasets that when something turns up that was previously thought to be
part of a proprietary dataset all alarm bells go off. Do you know how
they derived that flag and if there is really no residual proprietary IP
from RM in the data?



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 04/10/2019 20:28, Frederik Ramm wrote:

The reality is that people expect postcodes to be a functional search term on 
online mapping, at least in the UK,

You *are* ware that UK post codes are fully findable on the OSM website
and any site that runs the Nominatim geocoder? It must have been
mentioned somewhere in this thread. This means that our web site and
anything that uses Nominatim for geocoding already knows UK post codes
without importing them to OSM.


It is not like they were telling us "don't add addresses, we can do it 
better". They have done it to workaround two issues, one with OSM data, 
the other with Nominatim itself:


- For a long time we had close to zero coverage of unique postcodes. 
Even now are are at around 16%.


- Nominatim doesn't support searching addr:postcode tags (don't ask me why).

Both are fixable, making the database more useful to everyone, including 
people not using external data.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 04/10/2019 15:41, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

2. However... just blindly importing them seems to be a real missed
opportunity. If you give me a nice interface with centroids for Charlbury, I
will have a go at mapping them to actual, useful polygons, based on my
knowledge of the street layout and Carla the post-lady's daily rounds (or I
could ask her, but I'm not sure of the IP of asking an RM employee...). If
you dump them into the database as-is I almost certainly won't get round to
it.


Having address points you can "copy" to buildings or POIs does help a 
lot, though.


You can download my .osm files with address points from 
https://github.com/ndrw6/import_postcodes and try them out yourself. 
They work almost the same to what you would get after the import, but 
they are _not_ intended for importing into OSM. Just open them up as a 
temporary data layer in jOSM, and delete them before an upload.


Some benefits of having address points I found in my testing:

- Much faster and easier merging (about 3-5 times) than raster tiles. I 
was regularly adding ~1000 points per ~1 hr session this way. Basically, 
I used copy/paste-tags feature in jOSM, which I remapped to keys 2 and 3 
to make it less taxing than default Ctrl-C and Ctrl-Shift-V.


- More accurate (no typing required). I had a fair number of typos when 
using Chris's tile (entirely my fault).


- It is easy to see which points have already been merged - simply 
delete ones that have been merged. This is very important when working 
on a larger area over multiple sessions. It is super easy to miss some 
sections. This is where Robert's page 
(https://osm.mathmos.net/addresses/pc-stats/) helps but you need to wait 
a day or two for it to update.


- It is easy to see multiple/overlapping postcodes

- In some cases (sub-urban residential areas) It may be possible to 
merge addresses with building automatically. I've described the 
procedure in one of the earlier threads. That could be an option for 
places like Sheffield, which have tens of thousands of postcodes ready 
to merge.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mark Goodge]

On 04/10/2019 20:28, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 10/4/19 20:51, Mark Goodge wrote:

The reality is that people expect postcodes to be a functional
search term on online mapping, at least in the UK,


You *are* ware that UK post codes are fully findable on the OSM
website and any site that runs the Nominatim geocoder? It must have
been mentioned somewhere in this thread. This means that our web site
and anything that uses Nominatim for geocoding already knows UK post
codes without importing them to OSM.


Yes, but OSM is the data, and the data needs to stand alone without 
needing Nominatim as a front-end. It's easy to add postcode search to 
OSM by means of an add-on system. But not every use of OSM data will 
include those add-ons.



With an automated import, OSM can be as up to date as the latest
release of CPO/ONSPD. And that's a positive selling point for our
data.


The notion that automated imports could set OSM apart from the 
competition flies in the face of what many of us believe to be OSM's 
unique value proposition. We don't usually brand ourselves as "the 
database with the better imports" and we're unlikely to ever be a

match to the giants on the field of engineering.


Automating a postcode import is trivial. The reason Google is slow to do 
it isn't because it's an engineering challenge, it's simply because they 
don't consider it a priority.


Richard makes a good point (that if anything, a manual process that 
allows our human editors with local knowledge - who are what really

sets us apart - to verify and improve the data would be preferable)
but also a questionable one (in suggesting that there are 195
countries in the world having some form of post codes that is also
available as open data - the number is probably one-digit).

I would like to applaud Ken for his roll-up-sleeves approach. It 
shouldn't be too hard to find one house for each of the post codes

in your local area and add the post code to that, which will
ultimately make every post code findable without actually having to
add something as synthetic as a centroid.


There are, typically, between 1,000 and 3,000 new postcodes added every 
month, and postcodes are deleted every month, too. Sometimes, there's a 
mass reorganisation of postcode data which can involve additions and 
deletions of the many tens of thousands in one month. I don't think that 
OSM has anywhere near the number of human editors necessary to keep up 
with that manually.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Chris Hill]

On 04/10/2019 15:41, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Twopenn'orth and not particularly a reply to any single message:

1. I'm not against them being in the OSM database, mostly for the reason
that it's unrealistic to expect every single app to do additional processing
for all 195 countries in the world. Sure, it would be nice if Osmand and
maps.me and Fred's routing app and Jo's OSM-based game were all smart enough
to ingest CodePoint Open (and its 194 equivalents worldwide), but they
won't. Expecting them to do so is akin to people expecting every single app
to filter out C-roads in Britain, and even osm-carto doesn't do that. So it
seems a reasonably pragmatic thing to do.

2. However... just blindly importing them seems to be a real missed
opportunity. If you give me a nice interface with centroids for Charlbury, I
will have a go at mapping them to actual, useful polygons, based on my
knowledge of the street layout and Carla the post-lady's daily rounds (or I
could ask her, but I'm not sure of the IP of asking an RM employee...). If
you dump them into the database as-is I almost certainly won't get round to
it.

cheers
Richard

One such map is here: 
https://oscompare.raggedred.net/?zoom=16=53.73916=-0.49208=BFF 



It uses the same overlay I provide for editors: 
https://codepoint.raggedred.net 


The OSCompare does need a tidy up and would work better as a 
Leaflet-based map, maybe that's the jib for the rainy Saturday that's 
coming.


Fill y'boots :-)

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Chris Hill]

On 04/10/2019 01:52, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote:


Besides, the main reason for importing these data is that we can get 
_all_ postcodes in the database. This gives users confidence that when 
they search for a postcode they will reliably get a result they are 
looking for. This is not possible when merging postcodes with 
buildings simply because we still have only a small fraction of 
buildings in the database.


Searching for GB postcodes on the OSM site works already. The search 
system, Nominatim, has extra datasets loaded to improve the search and 
one of them already is Codepoint Open. If you search for postcode that 
is not currently in a GB address (it's not yet been added possibly 
because the buildings it describes have not been created in the database 
yet) search still find it and centres the map on the imaginary postcode 
centroid. So to make searching work we do not need to import imaginary 
postcode centroids to the main OSM database.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/4/19 20:51, Mark Goodge wrote:
> The reality is that people expect postcodes to be a functional search term on 
> online mapping, at least in the UK,

You *are* ware that UK post codes are fully findable on the OSM website
and any site that runs the Nominatim geocoder? It must have been
mentioned somewhere in this thread. This means that our web site and
anything that uses Nominatim for geocoding already knows UK post codes
without importing them to OSM.

This discussion, therefore, is not about improving the OSM web site or
indeed most web sites that use OSM ("functional search term on online
mapping"), but only (quoting Richard) "Osmand and maps.me and Fred's
routing app and Jo's OSM-based game" insofar as these don't use
Nominatim or directly ingest the available open data.

> With an automated import, OSM can be
> as up to date as the latest release of CPO/ONSPD. And that's a positive
> selling point for our data.

The notion that automated imports could set OSM apart from the
competition flies in the face of what many of us believe to be OSM's
unique value proposition. We don't usually brand ourselves as "the
database with the better imports" and we're unlikely to ever be a match
to the giants on the field of engineering.

(Maybe you're right and Google have a glitch somehow that makes them
ingest new data with a delay but that sounds like an engineering problem
that can and will be fixed.)

Richard makes a good point (that if anything, a manual process that
allows our human editors with local knowledge - who are what really sets
us apart - to verify and improve the data would be preferable) but also
a questionable one (in suggesting that there are 195 countries in the
world having some form of post codes that is also available as open data
- the number is probably one-digit).

I would like to applaud Ken for his roll-up-sleeves approach. It
shouldn't be too hard to find one house for each of the post codes in
your local area and add the post code to that, which will ultimately
make every post code findable without actually having to add something
as synthetic as a centroid.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mark Goodge]

On 04/10/2019 01:52, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote:


This may not be a perfect solution but the information CPO/ONSPD 
contains is still extremely useful for geocoding. Search for a postcode 
and you are _guaranteed_ to get an address in a close vicinity to a 
place you are looking for. How about not needing to start Google Maps 
when searching for a location on the go?


I entirely agree with this. You can search for any postcode on Google 
Maps, Bing Maps, Here Maps and Michelin Maps, to name just the ones I've 
checked right now. The reality is that people expect postcodes to be a 
functional search term on online mapping, at least in the UK, and not 
having it places OSM at a distinct disadvantage compared to the 
commercial mapping operators. Given that postcode data is itself 
available under a compatible licence, refusing to use it because of 
purist notions of what a map should be is, in my opinion, simply a case 
of cutting off our noses to spite our face. It's important that OSM 
gives users what they want from a map, not just what mapping geeks want 
from a map. And users want postcodes - all of them - to be a functional 
search term.


In fact, OSM can easily do better than Google et al when it comes to 
postcodes. One of their biggest faults is the lag on adding new 
postcodes - it can take up to 18 months before new postcodes become 
usable search terms on Google Maps. With an automated import, OSM can be 
as up to date as the latest release of CPO/ONSPD. And that's a positive 
selling point for our data.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Ken Kilfedder]

Thanks for this Chris,

I've just added about 100 addr:postcodes to some of my manor in no time at all. 
It was mostly pretty easy to identify a good match for and existing building. 
Then I went back and added a source tag as an afterthought.

Great stuff all round, I''l try to remember to make at trip to raggedred.net 
part of future mapping exploits.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk


On Wed, 2 Oct 2019, at 2:20 PM, Chris Hill wrote:
> I would not like to see that happen. OSM maps real objects, postcodes are not 
> real and only apply as a part of an object's address. They apply to buildings 
> (delivery points on buildings really). The postcodes in Codepoint Open are 
> centroids derived from a combination of all the delivery points that share 
> the postcode so are not at all real-world objects.

> If you want to apply postcodes to addresses you can see the map overlay I 
> have produced which you can use in editors as an overlay: 
> https://codepoint.raggedred.net/ I will update it again shortly. You can also 
> derive postcodes from other open data sources such as FHRS data. 

> -- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

> 
> On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:
>> Hi,

>> I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
>> postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
>> .

>> The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a node 
>> for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be useful for 
>> routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user to enter a 
>> postcode as a destination.

>> I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines 
>>  say that imports 
>> should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local 
>> communities, hence this email.

>> Russ Phillips

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Twopenn'orth and not particularly a reply to any single message:

1. I'm not against them being in the OSM database, mostly for the reason
that it's unrealistic to expect every single app to do additional processing
for all 195 countries in the world. Sure, it would be nice if Osmand and
maps.me and Fred's routing app and Jo's OSM-based game were all smart enough
to ingest CodePoint Open (and its 194 equivalents worldwide), but they
won't. Expecting them to do so is akin to people expecting every single app
to filter out C-roads in Britain, and even osm-carto doesn't do that. So it
seems a reasonably pragmatic thing to do.

2. However... just blindly importing them seems to be a real missed
opportunity. If you give me a nice interface with centroids for Charlbury, I
will have a go at mapping them to actual, useful polygons, based on my
knowledge of the street layout and Carla the post-lady's daily rounds (or I
could ask her, but I'm not sure of the IP of asking an RM employee...). If
you dump them into the database as-is I almost certainly won't get round to
it.

cheers
Richard



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Dan S]

Op vr 4 okt. 2019 om 14:07 schreef Russ Garrett :
>
> On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 13:59, David Woolley  wrote:
> > Although I don't have a primary source for this, my understanding is
> > that the median is snapped to the nearest actual delivery point within
> > the postcode.
>
> I was also under the impression that they were mathematical centroids
> of the postcode area but the user guide [1] indeed says: "The point is
> given the coordinates of the nearest delivery point to the calculated
> mean position of the delivery points within the postcode unit."
> (Although this may not be true for all entries - the PQI will provide
> that info.)

FWIW the technical term is "medoid"... though I guess throwing new
technical terms in is not my best contribution...


> So I guess it would technically be possible to use Code-Point Open to
> add at least one address location to OSM for most postcodes. I'm still
> uneasy about doing this automatically though.

I've long been frustrated by the uselessness of most OSM-based
services wrt UK postcodes, and I agree with the argument that postcode
medoids are not very different from many of the other "abstract-ish"
things we have deliberately tagged in OSM
 - so, for me, I would support some kind of perhaps semi-automatic
import process.

Best
Dan


> [1] 
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/product-support/user-guide/code-point-open-user-guide.pdf
>
> --
> Russ Garrett
> r...@garrett.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Russ Garrett]

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 13:59, David Woolley  wrote:
> Although I don't have a primary source for this, my understanding is
> that the median is snapped to the nearest actual delivery point within
> the postcode.

I was also under the impression that they were mathematical centroids
of the postcode area but the user guide [1] indeed says: "The point is
given the coordinates of the nearest delivery point to the calculated
mean position of the delivery points within the postcode unit."
(Although this may not be true for all entries - the PQI will provide
that info.)

So I guess it would technically be possible to use Code-Point Open to
add at least one address location to OSM for most postcodes. I'm still
uneasy about doing this automatically though.

Cheers,

[1] 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/documents/product-support/user-guide/code-point-open-user-guide.pdf

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[David Woolley]

On 04/10/2019 13:47, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
No. The centre point is not associated with *any* delivery point. It is 
an arbitrary mean, calculated mathematically. it could, in theory, be 
located in the middle of a park.
Even postcodes unique to one property/business aren't accurate as their 
positions are misaligned by the effect of adjacent areas.


Although I don't have a primary source for this, my understanding is 
that the median is snapped to the nearest actual delivery point within 
the postcode.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

On 04/10/2019 01:52, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote:

On 04/10/2019 00:26, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
I think you're missing the point. Most contributors believe postcodes 
on buildings or property nodes, add quality to the OSM's database, 
but object to the import of codepoint as it's just not accurate 
enough as stated in this, & numerous other threads.


This is incorrect. CPO/ONSPD postcodes _are_ accurate, up to date and 
include all postcodes in the UK except NI. 


Please note: "not accurate *enough*"

They are not complete (contain one and only one delivery point per 
postcode), 


No. The centre point is not associated with *any* delivery point. It is 
an arbitrary mean, calculated mathematically. it could, in theory, be 
located in the middle of a park.
Even postcodes unique to one property/business aren't accurate as their 
positions are misaligned by the effect of adjacent areas.


which is pity, but that's not a reason not to use the ones that are 
available, which is still _far_ more that what we have in the database.


Quantity does not equate to quality.



This may not be a perfect solution but the information CPO/ONSPD 
contains is still extremely useful for geocoding. Search for a 
postcode and you are _guaranteed_ to get an address in a close 
vicinity to a place you are looking for. 


No. With an import of the centroids points you're only guaranteed to be 
given the location of the node with the postcode.



How about not needing to start Google Maps when searching for a 
location on the go?


There's no point in importing to stand alone nodes as deliveries are 
destined for buildings. Adding to streets is also pointless for the 
same reason plus they can have multiple postcodes.


Addresses on nodes are commonly used in the UK OSM. Many mappers 
prefer them over placing addresses on buildings. There are also many 
cases (POIs) where nodes are objectively better than buildings. So, 
no, there right and wrong solution here.


Allow me to clarify. I should have maybe said 'properties' which can be 
represented by nodes instead of 'buildings'.
My objection, which I thought was clear, was to "standalone nodes" with 
just a postcode tag.





Besides, the main reason for importing these data is that we can get 
_all_ postcodes in the database.


Again quantity /= quality. If you can't manipulate data then it's 
useless. These standalone postcode nodes will relate to nothing.


This gives users confidence that when they search for a postcode they 
will reliably get a result they are looking for. This is not possible 
when merging postcodes with buildings simply because we still have 
only a small fraction of buildings in the database.


By the way, I'm not against merging addr:postcode with buildings, 
that's exactly what I was doing myself when adding postcodes manually. 
However, this is not a process that can be automated (lack of 
buildings, single OSM buildings having more than one address/postcode).


Then add buildings.

Based on my experience with mapping postcodes with CPO, I would 
recommend starting with an import and merge postcodes and buildings 
later.


Experience has shown that doesn't happen. I'm thinking US TIGER imports, 
but I'm sure there are other examples.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Edward Bainton]

My usual disclaimer that I have no great OSM expertise. Hopefully I can
give a newbie's/recently-a-non-editor's perspective.

This:

> How about not needing to start Google Maps
> when searching for a location on the go?

would be reason enough to bring in postcodes in this way.

Even if they're not strictly 'on-the-ground', every rule needs exceptions
and the payoff from this exception would be _enormous_.

(And is anyway consistent with loc_name which is allowed even where the
name is nowhere written on signs on-the-ground?)

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 11:20, David Woolley 
wrote:

> On 04/10/2019 00:26, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
> > There's no point in importing to stand alone nodes as deliveries are
> > destined for buildings. Adding to streets is also pointless for the same
> > reason plus they can have multiple postcodes.
>
> Deliveries are to specific points on buildings.  In principle they could
> also be to US style post boxes, on the property boundary.
>
> (Actually, the human entrance for a building might be in a different
> post code area from the mail delivery point, although I can't think of
> good examples.)
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

4 Oct 2019, 01:26 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> There's no point in importing to stand alone nodes as deliveries are destined 
> for buildings. 
>
Importing accurate and complete address
nodes on a suitable licence is certainly
helpful.

Not sure is it applying also to incomplete
set, but based on my experience address
nodes are very helpful and allow to do less boring survey.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 04/10/2019 00:26, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
I think you're missing the point. Most contributors believe postcodes 
on buildings or property nodes, add quality to the OSM's database, but 
object to the import of codepoint as it's just not accurate enough as 
stated in this, & numerous other threads.


This is incorrect. CPO/ONSPD postcodes _are_ accurate, up to date and 
include all postcodes in the UK except NI. They are not complete 
(contain one and only one delivery point per postcode), which is pity, 
but that's not a reason not to use the ones that are available, which is 
still _far_ more that what we have in the database.


This may not be a perfect solution but the information CPO/ONSPD 
contains is still extremely useful for geocoding. Search for a postcode 
and you are _guaranteed_ to get an address in a close vicinity to a 
place you are looking for. How about not needing to start Google Maps 
when searching for a location on the go?


There's no point in importing to stand alone nodes as deliveries are 
destined for buildings. Adding to streets is also pointless for the 
same reason plus they can have multiple postcodes.


Addresses on nodes are commonly used in the UK OSM. Many mappers prefer 
them over placing addresses on buildings. There are also many cases 
(POIs) where nodes are objectively better than buildings. So, no, there 
right and wrong solution here.


Besides, the main reason for importing these data is that we can get 
_all_ postcodes in the database. This gives users confidence that when 
they search for a postcode they will reliably get a result they are 
looking for. This is not possible when merging postcodes with buildings 
simply because we still have only a small fraction of buildings in the 
database.


By the way, I'm not against merging addr:postcode with buildings, that's 
exactly what I was doing myself when adding postcodes manually. However, 
this is not a process that can be automated (lack of buildings, single 
OSM buildings having more than one address/postcode). Based on my 
experience with mapping postcodes with CPO, I would recommend starting 
with an import and merge postcodes and buildings later.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

I think you're missing the point. Most contributors believe postcodes on 
buildings or property nodes, add quality to the OSM's database, but 
object to the import of codepoint as it's just not accurate enough as 
stated in this, & numerous other threads.


There's no point in importing to stand alone nodes as deliveries are 
destined for buildings. Adding to streets is also pointless for the same 
reason plus they can have multiple postcodes.


DaveF

On 03/10/2019 01:40, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote:

On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:
I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
. 




I support it. From my own experience, requests like this tend to 
attract objections, so it is important for people who agree with such 
proposals to speak out.


The key and, in my opinion, sufficient reasons for importing postcodes:

- Objectively, postcodes are an important type of addressing and 
geocoding data in the UK. We've had two quarterly projects encouraging 
adding postcodes to the OSM database. Some people (including myself) 
don't like the fact the postcodes are proprietary to Royal Mail but we 
are here to map the world, not to judge it.


- They are accepted in the OSM database and there is no tagging 
ambiguity. Their place is _in_ the OSM database, not in external 
overlays. They are searchable in most applications (OsmAnd, Maps.me), 
the exception is Nominatim, which uses an outdated overlay but this is 
more a workaround for lack of such data in the database, than a solution.


- Code-Point Open is a legal and open source of postcode data. In fact 
it is the _only_ legal source of such data in bulk. All other sources 
are either derived from CPO or are based on local knowledge.


All reasons _against_ the import I've seen so far are based on 
personal preferences. People are objecting because they don't like the 
idea of proprietary address data, do not find them important enough, 
do not find them comprehensive enough. These views are useful in 
establishing the context but are not a reason to block the import of 
what _is_ available.


Talking about technical aspects:

- The key (and deliberate) limitation Code-Point Open is that it 
doesn't distinguish between residential postcodes and postcodes 
assigned to "large users". This is not ideal but still useful - we 
know the postcode exists at a given location, we just can't be sure if 
it is the only postcode there.


- Quality of building in OSM database. Large buildings, especially in 
town centres, are often not partitioned correctly. Different parts may 
have different street names and postcodes. Code-Point Open may in fact 
be helpful in finding and correcting such issues.


- Some postcodes are for PO boxes (usually collocated with post 
offices) are are best left out.


My recommendation: import missing postcodes "as is" (as points) with 
extra tags denoting the import, import date and an accuracy metric 
from CPO. Keep it searchable and easy to remove or update, if 
necessary. Code-Point Open is updated quarterly and sometimes 
centroids move to another building. Filter out PO boxes and postcodes 
which are already in OSM (I usually check if there is an OSM object 
with a matching addr:postcode within a 10m radius of the code point). 
Do not attempt to merge them with buildings as it is not guaranteed to 
work in all cases. This is best done manually and in some cases it may 
require a survey.


Best regards,

ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 03/10/2019 09:26, Mark Goodge wrote:
- The key (and deliberate) limitation Code-Point Open is that it 
doesn't distinguish between residential postcodes and postcodes 
assigned to "large users". This is not ideal but still useful - we 
know the postcode exists at a given location, we just can't be sure 
if it is the only postcode there.


ONSPD solves this problem, because it includes the "large user" flag.


That would be very useful, indeed. I didn't know ONSPD has it. From a 
cursory look at it in the past, I've got an impression it was simply a 
repackaged Code-Point Open plus some ONS specific data.


The data format itself is not a big issue. To do any nontrivial data 
processing we still need to import data into something like GeoPandas 
and run some queries in there. Not that GeoPandas is that great either 
(the key feature, spacial join, is not accelerated) but that's a 
separate topic.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Mark Goodge]

On 03/10/2019 01:40, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote:


- Code-Point Open is a legal and open source of postcode data. In fact 
it is the _only_ legal source of such data in bulk. All other sources 
are either derived from CPO or are based on local knowledge.


That's not true. The ONS Postcode Database (ONSPD) products are also 
OGL, at least as far as mainland GB postcodes are concerned (NI 
postcodes are somewhat different). And ONSPD is more useful than 
Code-Point Open, partly because it's more amenable to an automated 
update (you can script a regular download of the latest file, unlike OS 
products which need to be manually ordered each time), and partly 
because it includes more meta-data that can also be valuable (for 
example, it includes lookups to GSS codes for a wide range of 
administrative authorities).


- The key (and deliberate) limitation Code-Point Open is that it doesn't 
distinguish between residential postcodes and postcodes assigned to 
"large users". This is not ideal but still useful - we know the postcode 
exists at a given location, we just can't be sure if it is the only 
postcode there.


ONSPD solves this problem, because it includes the "large user" flag.

(Slight tangent here: residential postcodes can be "large user" too; for 
example a university hall of residence with a single address point. 
Postcodes themselves don't distinguish between residential and 
commercial use, and that information isn't reliably held anywhere, even 
in the full PAF, as that information is generally irrelevant to Royal 
Mail's purposes. But it is true that most large user postcodes are 
commercial.)


- Quality of building in OSM database. Large buildings, especially in 
town centres, are often not partitioned correctly. Different parts may 
have different street names and postcodes. Code-Point Open may in fact 
be helpful in finding and correcting such issues.


- Some postcodes are for PO boxes (usually collocated with post offices) 
are are best left out.


You can generally identify Post Office based PO Box postcodes simply by 
looking for postcodes that share identical coordinates. But, of course, 
to do that you need to have all of them; you can't do it reliably on a 
postcode-by-postcode basis.


My recommendation: import missing postcodes "as is" (as points) with 
extra tags denoting the import, import date and an accuracy metric from 
CPO. Keep it searchable and easy to remove or update, if necessary. 
Code-Point Open is updated quarterly and sometimes centroids move to 
another building. Filter out PO boxes and postcodes which are already in 
OSM (I usually check if there is an OSM object with a matching 
addr:postcode within a 10m radius of the code point). Do not attempt to 
merge them with buildings as it is not guaranteed to work in all cases. 
This is best done manually and in some cases it may require a survey.


I agree with all of that, with the exception that I'd suggest using 
ONSPD as the source (for the reasons given above). An advantage of using 
ONSPD is that the presence of the large user flag means that for 
postcodes identified as being large user (if not also PO Box postcodes), 
they do accurately and correctly identify a specific building. So they 
can be merged with the building data where possible.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 02/10/2019 14:20, Chris Hill wrote:


I would not like to see that happen. OSM maps real objects, postcodes 
are not real and only apply as a part of an object's address. They 
apply to buildings (delivery points on buildings really). The 
postcodes in Codepoint Open are centroids derived from a combination 
of all the delivery points that share the postcode so are not at all 
real-world objects.


Points with addr:* tags are commonly in use and accepted, there is no 
reason why addr:postcode would have to be different. When possible I 
also prefer tagging addresses on buildings or building:part but there 
are multiple conventions in use (points, points+interpolation, points on 
entrances).


If you want to apply postcodes to addresses you can see the map 
overlay I have produced which you can use in editors as an overlay: 
https://codepoint.raggedred.net/  I will update it again shortly. You 
can also derive postcodes from other open data sources such as FHRS data.


Thank you. I've been using your overlays a lot. However, given a choice, 
I would much more prefer a periodic, maintained import. Much less prone 
to errors, more up to date and easier to merge with buildings, if needed.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[ndrw6]

On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:
I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
. 



I support it. From my own experience, requests like this tend to attract 
objections, so it is important for people who agree with such proposals 
to speak out.


The key and, in my opinion, sufficient reasons for importing postcodes:

- Objectively, postcodes are an important type of addressing and 
geocoding data in the UK. We've had two quarterly projects encouraging 
adding postcodes to the OSM database. Some people (including myself) 
don't like the fact the postcodes are proprietary to Royal Mail but we 
are here to map the world, not to judge it.


- They are accepted in the OSM database and there is no tagging 
ambiguity. Their place is _in_ the OSM database, not in external 
overlays. They are searchable in most applications (OsmAnd, Maps.me), 
the exception is Nominatim, which uses an outdated overlay but this is 
more a workaround for lack of such data in the database, than a solution.


- Code-Point Open is a legal and open source of postcode data. In fact 
it is the _only_ legal source of such data in bulk. All other sources 
are either derived from CPO or are based on local knowledge.


All reasons _against_ the import I've seen so far are based on personal 
preferences. People are objecting because they don't like the idea of 
proprietary address data, do not find them important enough, do not find 
them comprehensive enough. These views are useful in establishing the 
context but are not a reason to block the import of what _is_ available.


Talking about technical aspects:

- The key (and deliberate) limitation Code-Point Open is that it doesn't 
distinguish between residential postcodes and postcodes assigned to 
"large users". This is not ideal but still useful - we know the postcode 
exists at a given location, we just can't be sure if it is the only 
postcode there.


- Quality of building in OSM database. Large buildings, especially in 
town centres, are often not partitioned correctly. Different parts may 
have different street names and postcodes. Code-Point Open may in fact 
be helpful in finding and correcting such issues.


- Some postcodes are for PO boxes (usually collocated with post offices) 
are are best left out.


My recommendation: import missing postcodes "as is" (as points) with 
extra tags denoting the import, import date and an accuracy metric from 
CPO. Keep it searchable and easy to remove or update, if necessary. 
Code-Point Open is updated quarterly and sometimes centroids move to 
another building. Filter out PO boxes and postcodes which are already in 
OSM (I usually check if there is an OSM object with a matching 
addr:postcode within a 10m radius of the code point). Do not attempt to 
merge them with buildings as it is not guaranteed to work in all cases. 
This is best done manually and in some cases it may require a survey.


Best regards,

ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Russ Phillips via Talk-GB]

I didn't even know there was an OsmAnd forum ;) I'll go look for it, thanks.

Russ

⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On 2 Oct 2019, 16:47, at 16:47, Nick Allen  wrote:
>Hi Russ,
>
>Somewhere in tbe Osmand forum you should find a link for a postcode
>player
>you can download & use. I think it was Harry, one of the main people
>answering queries who produced it.
>
>Regards
>
>Nick
>my phone is responsible for any spelling mistakes!
>
>On Wed, 2 Oct 2019, 17:12 Russ Phillips via Talk-GB, <
>talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> OsmAnd is what made me think of it. I'm using that for directions a
>lot
>> now, and it's common these days to give a postcode to plug into a sat
>nav,
>> but they frequently don't work in OsmAnd.
>>
>> I was somewhat surprised that it hadn't already been done, and I
>accept
>> all the reasons for not doing it.
>>
>> I'll look into alternatives.
>>
>> Russ
>>
>>
>> On 02/10/2019 15:52, SK53 wrote:
>>
>> I really see no point. The data are already present in Nominatim
>(albeit
>> perhaps not up-to-date) and search is the ONLY thing that so-called
>> postcode centroids can help with. DE24 (Sinfin) was imported long
>ago, see
>> this overpass query .
>>
>> What can be done is attempt to assign postcodes to streets, and
>various
>> incomplete efforts have been made over the years. Open Data provides
>full
>> addresses for around 70% of UK postcodes (principally Companies
>House, Food
>> Hygiene & National Register of Social Housing).
>>
>> What would be useful is a maintained set of postcode information
>based on
>> codepoint open/ONS postcode data/OS Local. The sorts of things which
>it
>> would be useful to know are:
>>
>>- Is the postcode centroid co-located with others (e.g., delivery
>>offices, some businesses, blocks of flats)
>>- Can the postcode be unambiguously assigned to a street & post
>town?
>>- Is the post code in use or not (ONS is now obviously 8 years
>old,
>>but still potentially useful). Greg's FHRS tracker does appear to
>indicate
>>a degree of churn with inner-city postcodes (although some of this
>will be
>>inadvertent use of more general rather than specific postcodes by
>people
>>filling in the FHRS forms)
>>- Is a postcode the sole postcode for that street?
>>
>> Somewhere I have an old CPO table with some of this data populated. I
>> think Geolytix had summary info associated with their post code
>sector
>> shape files as well.
>>
>> Adding addr:postcode to streets which have a single postcode is in my
>book
>> fine: numerous LAs put this on street signs (Rushcliffe & Gedling for
>> sure); it's an intermediate step to adding the addresses to houses
>Once
>> the postcodes which obviously belong to a single street are
>eliminated it's
>> often easier to work out where the others belong.
>>
>> Note that other than for FHRS we have no good source for Northern
>Ireland
>> postcodes at all. Equally assignment of rural postcodes is quite a
>bit
>> harder than urban ones. In re-reading bits of Chris's blog last night
>I
>> came across a post of his
>>  showing
>that
>> some postcodes move huge distances between releases.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> PS. The Sinfin postcodes possibly should be removed as they were
>added
>> IIRC before Mike Collinson's discussions with OSGB about OS Open
>Data.
>>
>> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:44, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB <
>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK
>>> postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint
>>>
>
>>> .
>>>
>>> The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create
>a
>>> node for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would
>be
>>> useful for routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user
>to
>>> enter a postcode as a destination.
>>>
>>> I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines
>>>  say that
>imports
>>> should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local
>>> communities, hence this email.
>>>
>>> Russ Phillips
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

I think this is a Win/JOSM problem - After pasting the URL If I move the 
cursor using the arrow keys the TMS URL is created.


Thanks
DaveF

On 02/10/2019 17:19, Chris Hill wrote:
Thanks for reporting a problem - I'll always try to respond if I can. 
The installation process has changed in the past but it looks familiar 
now.


I've just tested the installation instructions on JOSM version 15390 
and it worked as expected. The Okay button enabled when the URL (with 
https) and a name for the layer are both input, a max zoom can be 
added too.


I tried this on Mac OS and Linux and both worked. I don't have an easy 
access to Windows, but Java stuff should be cross platform I think.


You can use HTTP or HTTPS for the overlay as both are provided, I just 
think it's better to use HTTPS whenever possible.





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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Chris Hill]

Thanks for reporting a problem - I'll always try to respond if I can. 
The installation process has changed in the past but it looks familiar now.


I've just tested the installation instructions on JOSM version 15390 and 
it worked as expected. The Okay button enabled when the URL (with https) 
and a name for the layer are both input, a max zoom can be added too.


I tried this on Mac OS and Linux and both worked. I don't have an easy 
access to Windows, but Java stuff should be cross platform I think.


You can use HTTP or HTTPS for the overlay as both are provided, I just 
think it's better to use HTTPS whenever possible.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


On 02/10/2019 16:55, Dave F wrote:
FYI in JOSM (latest) https wont generate a TMS URL. I had to change 
the pasted URL to http & then back again. then it generated & 
'ungreyed' the Okay button. Is this expected behaviour?


On 02/10/2019 15:37, Chris Hill wrote:

Thanks,

I've just updated with August 2019 data, the next update is due in 
November I think.







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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

FYI in JOSM (latest) https wont generate a TMS URL. I had to change the 
pasted URL to http & then back again. then it generated & 'ungreyed' the 
Okay button. Is this expected behaviour?


On 02/10/2019 15:37, Chris Hill wrote:

Thanks,

I've just updated with August 2019 data, the next update is due in 
November I think.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Russ Phillips via Talk-GB]

OsmAnd is what made me think of it. I'm using that for directions a lot 
now, and it's common these days to give a postcode to plug into a sat 
nav, but they frequently don't work in OsmAnd.


I was somewhat surprised that it hadn't already been done, and I accept 
all the reasons for not doing it.


I'll look into alternatives.

Russ


On 02/10/2019 15:52, SK53 wrote:
I really see no point. The data are already present in Nominatim  
(albeit perhaps not up-to-date) and search is the ONLY thing that 
so-called postcode centroids can help with. DE24 (Sinfin) was imported 
long ago, see this overpass query .


What can be done is attempt to assign postcodes to streets, and 
various incomplete efforts have been made over the years. Open Data 
provides full addresses for around 70% of UK postcodes (principally 
Companies House, Food Hygiene & National Register of Social Housing).


What would be useful is a maintained set of postcode information based 
on codepoint open/ONS postcode data/OS Local. The sorts of things 
which it would be useful to know are:


  * Is the postcode centroid co-located with others (e.g., delivery
offices, some businesses, blocks of flats)
  * Can the postcode be unambiguously assigned to a street & post town?
  * Is the post code in use or not (ONS is now obviously 8 years old,
but still potentially useful). Greg's FHRS tracker does appear to
indicate a degree of churn with inner-city postcodes (although
some of this will be inadvertent use of more general rather than
specific postcodes by people filling in the FHRS forms)
  * Is a postcode the sole postcode for that street?

Somewhere I have an old CPO table with some of this data populated. I 
think Geolytix had summary info associated with their post code sector 
shape files as well.


Adding addr:postcode to streets which have a single postcode is in my 
book fine: numerous LAs put this on street signs (Rushcliffe & Gedling 
for sure); it's an intermediate step to adding the addresses to 
houses  Once the postcodes which obviously belong to a single street 
are eliminated it's often easier to work out where the others belong.


Note that other than for FHRS we have no good source for Northern 
Ireland postcodes at all. Equally assignment of rural postcodes is 
quite a bit harder than urban ones. In re-reading bits of Chris's blog 
last night I came across a post of his 
 showing 
that some postcodes move huge distances between releases.


Jerry

PS. The Sinfin postcodes possibly should be removed as they were added 
IIRC before Mike Collinson's discussions with OSGB about OS Open Data.


On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:44, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB 
mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


Hi,

I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the
UK postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint

.

The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could
create a node for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag.
This would be useful for routing software like OsmAnd, since it
would allow a user to enter a postcode as a destination.

I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines
 say that
imports should be discussed on the imports@ list and the
appropriate local communities, hence this email.

Russ Phillips


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[SK53]

I really see no point. The data are already present in Nominatim  (albeit
perhaps not up-to-date) and search is the ONLY thing that so-called
postcode centroids can help with. DE24 (Sinfin) was imported long ago, see
this overpass query .

What can be done is attempt to assign postcodes to streets, and various
incomplete efforts have been made over the years. Open Data provides full
addresses for around 70% of UK postcodes (principally Companies House, Food
Hygiene & National Register of Social Housing).

What would be useful is a maintained set of postcode information based on
codepoint open/ONS postcode data/OS Local. The sorts of things which it
would be useful to know are:

   - Is the postcode centroid co-located with others (e.g., delivery
   offices, some businesses, blocks of flats)
   - Can the postcode be unambiguously assigned to a street & post town?
   - Is the post code in use or not (ONS is now obviously 8 years old, but
   still potentially useful). Greg's FHRS tracker does appear to indicate a
   degree of churn with inner-city postcodes (although some of this will be
   inadvertent use of more general rather than specific postcodes by people
   filling in the FHRS forms)
   - Is a postcode the sole postcode for that street?

Somewhere I have an old CPO table with some of this data populated. I think
Geolytix had summary info associated with their post code sector shape
files as well.

Adding addr:postcode to streets which have a single postcode is in my book
fine: numerous LAs put this on street signs (Rushcliffe & Gedling for
sure); it's an intermediate step to adding the addresses to houses  Once
the postcodes which obviously belong to a single street are eliminated it's
often easier to work out where the others belong.

Note that other than for FHRS we have no good source for Northern Ireland
postcodes at all. Equally assignment of rural postcodes is quite a bit
harder than urban ones. In re-reading bits of Chris's blog last night I
came across a post of his
 showing that
some postcodes move huge distances between releases.

Jerry

PS. The Sinfin postcodes possibly should be removed as they were added IIRC
before Mike Collinson's discussions with OSGB about OS Open Data.

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:44, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK
> postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint
> 
> .
>
> The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a node
> for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be useful for
> routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user to enter a
> postcode as a destination.
>
> I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines
>  say that imports
> should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local
> communities, hence this email.
>
> Russ Phillips
>
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Andy Robinson]

Cheers Chris, always mightily useful.

 

Andy

 

From: Chris Hill [mailto:o...@raggedred.net] 
Sent: 02 October 2019 15:38
To: Tony OSM; OSM Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

 

Thanks,

I've just updated with August 2019 data, the next update is due in November I 
think. 

-- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 02/10/2019 15:24, Tony OSM wrote: 

Hi

Didn't know about your JOSM overlay - just added and it looks great.

Tony Shield (TonyS999)

On 02/10/2019 14:20, Chris Hill wrote:

I would not like to see that happen. OSM maps real objects, postcodes are not 
real and only apply as a part of an object's address. They apply to buildings 
(delivery points on buildings really). The postcodes in Codepoint Open are 
centroids derived from a combination of all the delivery points that share the 
postcode so are not at all real-world objects.

If you want to apply postcodes to addresses you can see the map overlay I have 
produced which you can use in editors as an overlay: 
https://codepoint.raggedred.net/  I will update it again shortly. You can also 
derive postcodes from other open data sources such as FHRS data. 

-- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
 

On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi,

I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK postcode 
data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey_OpenData#Code-Point_Open> .

The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a node for 
each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be useful for routing 
software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user to enter a postcode as a 
destination.

I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines>  say that imports 
should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local communities, 
hence this email.

Russ Phillips

 

 

-- 
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Chris Hill]

I would not like to see that happen. OSM maps real objects, postcodes 
are not real and only apply as a part of an object's address. They apply 
to buildings (delivery points on buildings really). The postcodes in 
Codepoint Open are centroids derived from a combination of all the 
delivery points that share the postcode so are not at all real-world 
objects.


If you want to apply postcodes to addresses you can see the map overlay 
I have produced which you can use in editors as an overlay: 
https://codepoint.raggedred.net/ I will update it again shortly. You can 
also derive postcodes from other open data sources such as FHRS data.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:


Hi,

I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
.


The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a 
node for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be 
useful for routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user 
to enter a postcode as a destination.


I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines 
 say that 
imports should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate 
local communities, hence this email.


Russ Phillips


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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[David Woolley]

On 02/10/2019 13:57, David Woolley wrote:
Whilst I'm not sure of the precise conclusions, this has been considered 
many many times before.  I think it may even have been done in some 
places.  I'd suggest a search of the list archives.


Also, the discussing tab on the wiki page you referenced contains 
discussion on this going back over 9 years, and expresses concern about 
the licensing.


As a minor point, although described as centroids, they are not actually 
centroids, but actually the nearest valid delivery point to the centroid.


My feeling is that, if considered acceptable, it would already have 
happened.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[David Woolley]

Whilst I'm not sure of the precise conclusions, this has been considered 
many many times before.  I think it may even have been done in some 
places.  I'd suggest a search of the list archives.


Note that this data is not suitable for reverse geo-coding, because I 
don't believe it distinguishes between single business and area codes.


(Better would be to convince the general public that a proprietary 
locator system is not the best way of providing a short code for an 
approximate location.)



On 02/10/2019 13:43, Russ Phillips via Talk-GB wrote:

Hi,

I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
.


The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a 
node for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be 
useful for routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user to 
enter a postcode as a destination.


I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines 
 say that imports 
should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local 
communities, hence this email.


Russ Phillips



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[Talk-GB] Import UK postcode data?

[Russ Phillips via Talk-GB]

Hi,

I'm wondering if it would be feasible and advisable to import the UK 
postcode data from OS OpenData Codepoint 
.


The licence is OSM compatible. My thinking was that we could create a 
node for each data point and set the addr:postcode tag. This would be 
useful for routing software like OsmAnd, since it would allow a user to 
enter a postcode as a destination.


I'm happy to do the work, but the import guidelines 
 say that imports 
should be discussed on the imports@ list and the appropriate local 
communities, hence this email.


Russ Phillips


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