Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Robert Yaklin]

And then you have people like myself who were new to OSM and reading the
docs that say to join mailing list and to send email to mailing list before
doing proposed import of data and get no reply. Maybe the people who would
have replied use other channels and not the mailing list. In any case it
leaves me not feeling particularly welcome. Nor does it encourage me to
invest my time into mapping. At least now that this slack discussion is
happening I have some explanation of why it seemed not many people
participate in the mailing list. I'll never voluntarily install or use
slack and had never heard of it before this discussion.

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:36 PM Ian Dees  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 5:10 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> Martijn van Exel  writes:
>>
>> > Hi Simon,
>> >
>> >> > * everyone is on it
>> >> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>> >> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>> >> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>> >
>> > I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
>> > platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is
>> > something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that
>> > was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better
>> > platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit
>> > non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat locked in
>> > now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and becoming more
>> > so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. If
>> > there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue
>> > it.
>> >
>> > Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>>
>> Slack is a company with terms some don't like.  People should not have
>> to enter into a contract with some random company to participate in OSM.
>>
>> I for one am not on the osmf-us slack, and am likely to continue not
>> being on it.  So "everyone is on it" is demonstrably false.
>>
>> Another issue is that we are building open data, and open data and open
>> source go hand in hand philosophically.  So it is not surprising that
>> members of the OSM community object to proprietary communications
>> systems.  It is surprising that a non-trivial number of OSM people think
>> proprietary communication systems are ok.
>>
>> There is matrix; I haven't tried that, and I've heard positive reports
>> about self-hosted mattermost.
>>
>> Another possibility, which might fix the terms issue but not the
>> proprietary issue, would be for OSMF-US to enter into an agreement with
>> Slack, Inc. in such a way that OSM people do not have to enter into a
>> contract, much as if they were employees.
>>
>
> As we've said multiple times in this thread, it's totally OK for there to
> be multiple avenues of communication in the OSM community. That has always
> been the case and will continue being the case. If a group of community
> members want to get together on a communications channel, they should do
> that. It's especially OK when the communication channels are so different
> (like Slack/IRC vs. mailing lists). OSM US doesn't require anyone to use
> any particular communication channel and a large swath of the US's most
> engaged mappers are on several (mailing lists, slack, IRC, forum, etc.).
>
> Also, I don't think it's surprising that a vast array of different kinds
> of people participate in OpenStreetMap. Some of those people are interested
> and passionate in OpenStreetMap because of its relation to the Open Source
> movement, and some people want to contribute to a community project. I'm
> sure there are plenty of other reasons why people are part of this
> community – we should be welcoming to all of them, not just the ones that
> are passionate about Open Source.
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Marc Gemis]

The Belgian community lives now mostly on Riot, we do have an IRC
bridge and different channels to discuss dev or landuse related stuff.

The main drawback is the lack of threads (ever tried to follow 2
discussions taking place at the same time, let alone read was said
during the day ?). The not so great search  is another problem.

But for a quick question (with a photo) it's great.

just my .5 cent

m

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Mike Dupont
 wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have had good experience with riot.im matrix.org it is open source, mobile
> friendly and has an irc gateway.
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
>> >> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
>> >> community or should we look elsewhere?
>> > Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the
>> > better.
>> >
>> > Here are some advantages..
>> > * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
>> > * great mobile experience
>> > * good for sharing files / screenshots
>> > * works well for both sync and async chat
>> > * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but
>> > also mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
>> > * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything
>> > you want really)
>> > * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people
>> > in to a discussion
>> > * ability to mute and set availability times
>> > * user profiles
>> > * decent search
>>
>> You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
>> completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
>> .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).
>>
>> > * everyone is on it
>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>>
>> SImon
>>
>> >
>> > I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay
>> > for it if they asked me to.
>> >
>> > Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very
>> > common situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the
>> > people who are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will
>> > be the ones who respond.
>> >
>> > There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000
>> > on the GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are
>> > subscribed to the talk-us mailing list.
>> >
>> > I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy
>> > things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.
>> >
>> > Just my thoughts
>> > Thanks, Bryan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Talk-us mailing list
>> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>
>
>
> --
> James Michael DuPont
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 5:10 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> Martijn van Exel  writes:
>
> > Hi Simon,
> >
> >> > * everyone is on it
> >> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
> >> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
> >> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
> >
> > I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
> > platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is
> > something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that
> > was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better
> > platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit
> > non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat locked in
> > now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and becoming more
> > so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. If
> > there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue
> > it.
> >
> > Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>
> Slack is a company with terms some don't like.  People should not have
> to enter into a contract with some random company to participate in OSM.
>
> I for one am not on the osmf-us slack, and am likely to continue not
> being on it.  So "everyone is on it" is demonstrably false.
>
> Another issue is that we are building open data, and open data and open
> source go hand in hand philosophically.  So it is not surprising that
> members of the OSM community object to proprietary communications
> systems.  It is surprising that a non-trivial number of OSM people think
> proprietary communication systems are ok.
>
> There is matrix; I haven't tried that, and I've heard positive reports
> about self-hosted mattermost.
>
> Another possibility, which might fix the terms issue but not the
> proprietary issue, would be for OSMF-US to enter into an agreement with
> Slack, Inc. in such a way that OSM people do not have to enter into a
> contract, much as if they were employees.
>

As we've said multiple times in this thread, it's totally OK for there to
be multiple avenues of communication in the OSM community. That has always
been the case and will continue being the case. If a group of community
members want to get together on a communications channel, they should do
that. It's especially OK when the communication channels are so different
(like Slack/IRC vs. mailing lists). OSM US doesn't require anyone to use
any particular communication channel and a large swath of the US's most
engaged mappers are on several (mailing lists, slack, IRC, forum, etc.).

Also, I don't think it's surprising that a vast array of different kinds of
people participate in OpenStreetMap. Some of those people are interested
and passionate in OpenStreetMap because of its relation to the Open Source
movement, and some people want to contribute to a community project. I'm
sure there are plenty of other reasons why people are part of this
community – we should be welcoming to all of them, not just the ones that
are passionate about Open Source.
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Greg Troxel]

Martijn van Exel  writes:

> Hi Simon,
>
>> > * everyone is on it
>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>
> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
> platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is
> something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that
> was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better
> platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit
> non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat locked in
> now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and becoming more
> so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. If
> there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue
> it.
>
> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.

Slack is a company with terms some don't like.  People should not have
to enter into a contract with some random company to participate in OSM.

I for one am not on the osmf-us slack, and am likely to continue not
being on it.  So "everyone is on it" is demonstrably false.

Another issue is that we are building open data, and open data and open
source go hand in hand philosophically.  So it is not surprising that
members of the OSM community object to proprietary communications
systems.  It is surprising that a non-trivial number of OSM people think
proprietary communication systems are ok.

There is matrix; I haven't tried that, and I've heard positive reports
about self-hosted mattermost.

Another possibility, which might fix the terms issue but not the
proprietary issue, would be for OSMF-US to enter into an agreement with
Slack, Inc. in such a way that OSM people do not have to enter into a
contract, much as if they were employees.

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import, in Price George...)

[Clifford Snow]

Doug,
Like Martijn said, many of us are on multiple communications forums. I'm on
talk-us (and a bunch of others), IRC, Slack, Reddit and even on various
Meetup Groups. I used to be on Facebook, but just couldn't tolerate FB
attitude towards users privacy.

Slack is available on desktops as a standalone app. They have apps for
Windows, Mac and Linux. A smartphone isn't required.

Slack is to be attractive to a wide number of people. The US Chapter made
the right decision for the US community to adopt it. Slack is helping us
grow the community. That's good. Not everyone want to be on IRC, or Slack
or Mailing Lists, or etc. That's why we have so many choices.

Clifford



On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:22 PM Doug Hembry  wrote:

> I stand with Greg Morgan and Rihards on this one (and I think, Steve, if
> I remember rightly). I watch my email, and read the messages and digests
> from the talk lists. I'm old-fashioned and don't even use a smart phone
> or any social media (probably the only person in California who
> doesn't). I'd noted what seemed to be a drop-off in talk-us messages,
> and wondered where everyone had gone, but I'm not signing up for Slack
> or any other apps just to keep in touch. If the talk-us community is
> migrating to Slack, then I'll just get used to being out of the loop. A
> pity, but I don't have time to change my habits, and like some other
> correspondents I have a gut suspicion of for-profit corporations.
>
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import, in Price George...)

[Martijn van Exel]

Doug, 

I think we should / can rely on OSM US and community members who are on both 
Slack and email  to relay information to this list as well. I for one 
appreciate the fact that Slack and other social media are not for everyone. I 
will keep following the list as I have for years and post questions and 
announcements on here.

As a matter of fact I have something to say, I'll start another thread.
-- 
  Martijn van Exel
  m...@rtijn.org

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, at 15:22, Doug Hembry wrote:
> I stand with Greg Morgan and Rihards on this one (and I think, Steve, if 
> I remember rightly). I watch my email, and read the messages and digests 
> from the talk lists. I'm old-fashioned and don't even use a smart phone 
> or any social media (probably the only person in California who 
> doesn't). I'd noted what seemed to be a drop-off in talk-us messages, 
> and wondered where everyone had gone, but I'm not signing up for Slack 
> or any other apps just to keep in touch. If the talk-us community is 
> migrating to Slack, then I'll just get used to being out of the loop. A 
> pity, but I don't have time to change my habits, and like some other 
> correspondents I have a gut suspicion of for-profit corporations.
> 
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import, in Price George...)

[Doug Hembry]

I stand with Greg Morgan and Rihards on this one (and I think, Steve, if 
I remember rightly). I watch my email, and read the messages and digests 
from the talk lists. I'm old-fashioned and don't even use a smart phone 
or any social media (probably the only person in California who 
doesn't). I'd noted what seemed to be a drop-off in talk-us messages, 
and wondered where everyone had gone, but I'm not signing up for Slack 
or any other apps just to keep in touch. If the talk-us community is 
migrating to Slack, then I'll just get used to being out of the loop. A 
pity, but I don't have time to change my habits, and like some other 
correspondents I have a gut suspicion of for-profit corporations.

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Rihards]

On 2018.06.12. 11:08, Greg Morgan wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> 
> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
> platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice
> is something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice
> that was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a
> better platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a
> for-profit non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat
> locked in now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and
> becoming more so, as much as anyone who values free and open data
> and software. If there is a practical way to improve that situation,
> we should pursue it.
> 
> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
> 
> Martijn
> 
> I am thinking of something that happened _even before Slack was
> around_.  I found out late that, let's say it was, USSOTUM was already a
> go and that planning in high gear.  Come to find out that I guess that I
> should be reading the US Chapter's blog every day.  I don't recall
> seeing the information in an email.  Well with the job that I have now,
> I have only so much time to divide between mapping and other activities.
> Sometimes all I have time for is a quick scan of email and adding a
> single node.  My older phone was only 8G.  I had no room for anther app
> like slack.  What is nice about email is that I can watch various OSM
> messages along with various github notifications with just one app.  I
> just don't have time for all the social media channels out there.
> 
> If part of the mission of the US chapter is to "spread the word", then
> the chapter is not succeeding by selecting just one channel.  Not
> everyone has a nice phone to load apps, or would care about slack,
> facebook, or Twitter.  I think that the board needs to use all of the
> systems to get the word out.

First, kudos to everybody who contributed to building the community -
that is a very valuable work, and I can see how it is tempting to choose
something already used at work to kickstart things.

But I'm also not using Slack because of their terrible terms and the
completely closed ecosystem. Building on top of existing open solutions
would have been much more preferred - whether it's a better mobile
client and gateway for IRC or some other solution.

Using open solutions is close to eating our own dogfood. While not using
OSM while advocating it would seem silly, I can imagine a conversation
like this:
- this is OSM, an open map
- oh, I love open things, let me map something - and where's the community?
- it's in this proprietary chat app that does not interact with anything
else
- oh

There are parallels with the use of the closed BitKeeper for Linux
development, which gave rise to the development of git. Open communities
do conflict with closed ecosystems eventually.

> https://www.openstreetmap.us/
> We support OpenStreetMap by holding annual conferences, providing
> community resources, building partnerships, and by spreading the word.  
> 
> Regards,
> Greg-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Greg Morgan]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

>
> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one platform
> to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is something we
> can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that was available to us
> at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better platform for
> conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit non-open company well
> in the sense that we're somewhat locked in now. I dislike the fact that it
> is a walled garden, and becoming more so, as much as anyone who values free
> and open data and software. If there is a practical way to improve that
> situation, we should pursue it.
>
> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>
> Martijn


I am thinking of something that happened _even before Slack was around_.  I
found out late that, let's say it was, USSOTUM was already a go and that
planning in high gear.  Come to find out that I guess that I should be
reading the US Chapter's blog every day.  I don't recall seeing the
information in an email.  Well with the job that I have now, I have only so
much time to divide between mapping and other activities. Sometimes all I
have time for is a quick scan of email and adding a single node.  My older
phone was only 8G.  I had no room for anther app like slack.  What is nice
about email is that I can watch various OSM messages along with various
github notifications with just one app.  I just don't have time for all the
social media channels out there.

If part of the mission of the US chapter is to "spread the word", then the
chapter is not succeeding by selecting just one channel.  Not everyone has
a nice phone to load apps, or would care about slack, facebook, or
Twitter.  I think that the board needs to use all of the systems to get the
word out.

https://www.openstreetmap.us/
We support OpenStreetMap by holding annual conferences, providing community
resources, building partnerships, and by spreading the word.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi Simon,

> > * everyone is on it
> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.

I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one platform to 
talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is something we can 
debate. It was really the only feasible choice that was available to us at the 
time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better platform for conversations. Slack 
has done its job as a for-profit non-open company well in the sense that we're 
somewhat locked in now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and 
becoming more so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. 
If there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue it.

Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.

Martijn

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

> Clifford Snow  wrote:
> I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications.
Truly, I think that's great.  And again, the many forms of communication OSM 
uses, including new ones, are a natural part of a project as large and diverse 
as OSM is.  There ARE a great many, some of which "resonate with an appropriate 
audience, in a certain niche" better than others.  As has been described here, 
Slack is claimed by its users to appeal to a certain niche of "chat," Jeffrey's 
X, Y, Z examples are excellent descriptions.

> For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the 
> Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to the 
> community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and even 
> more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is dead.

With another OSM volunteer here on an email back-channel, I now discuss early 
thinkings about an existing, working-for-years software bridge between IRC and 
Jabber/XMPP he uses that sounds like it could mimic aspects of Slack using open 
source.  Not a huge amount of effort modifying this software bridge could 
breathe new life into IRC as it is/can be used by OSM participants.  This is a 
medium-scope back-burner for me right now, but it shows with a little glue and 
effort, open source can be leveraged yet again to fill a desire/need.  Peering 
off into the distance a bit, I am here.

> Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects of 
> what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be 
> engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want 
> to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other 
> forms of communications, means the community has chosen. 

Precisely what I wish OSM to guard against:  the false choice that "choosing" 
one means a certain exclusivity of others.  A "danger" here (as well described 
by Frederik) is to freeze out participation, as in "hush, we discussed this on 
Slack last year and you weren't there."  Such exclusivity enables this, we 
don't want this, (as you state, communication is vital), and "the community has 
chosen" seems to contradict or at least clash.

> I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists to 
> communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to 
> nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that 
> maybe because people use Slack in their day job.

"People use" is only the subset who do.  Importantly, that is a long, long way 
from everybody, or being inclusive towards communication in our very wide 
community.  In fact, it bumps up against that danger of exclusivity I want to 
call attention to so we avoid it.

> I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more agreeable 
> terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is objectionable?

Rather than "get lost in the weeds" of specific paragraphs I find objectionable 
and why...(yawn, snore), I believe this list resonates enough with a 
higher-level description of "commercial software, with (perhaps) onerous or 
difficult-to-agree-with clauses/paragraphs, and the entire proprietary nature 
that being commercial and licensed implies."  We're adults, though it has 
gotten much easier to blithely click an "I agree" button and now you are under 
the thumb of the publisher of the software, with very, very little ability to 
negotiate better terms (more openness/transparency, more clarity with regard to 
data ownership and retention...).  "Open source vs. proprietary" is an even 
more brief way to say it that most people can understand.  The concept is also 
well-respected, and all over the world, too.  Not to mention it resonates well 
with OSM, whose first name, after all, is Open.

> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the 
> community or should we look elsewhere?

Again, it isn't "either-or" and some kind of false choice of "let's standardize 
on one thing."  We not doing that, we shouldn't do that.

Thank you for the +1, Mark.  Jeffrey, yes, "too much control in the hands of a 
commercial entity" is concise (and a good start, even enough).  As well as X, 
Y, Z and "noise tends to overwhelm signal" and "real-time can exclude 
less-dedicated members."  Excellent, all of these.

Maybe the best thing to come out of this is wider discussion of the many 
communication methods OSM DOES use, and how they fit into niches and particular 
workflows, and what works (better, worse) and what doesn't.  That should be 
ongoing, anyway, so I suppose we can say we're doing OK.  I often wish us to do 
better, nudge, nudge.  Sometimes that begins with good discussion.  Look, we 
presently have here a rough initial inventory of communication 
methods/channels/protocols/software.  I'll take that as a good beginning.

SteveA
California

Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Ian Dees]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Jeffrey Ollie  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:21 PM, Bryan Housel 
> wrote:
>
>> > I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
>> community or should we look elsewhere?
>>
>> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.
>>
>> Here are some advantages..
>> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
>>
>
> Signing up for a mailing list is really that hard?
>

Mailing lists and forums solve a different problem than chat systems like
Slack or IRC. All of these systems can co-exist at the same time and
support people who want to communicate in different ways.

But to answer your question, I assist at least one person a week with
figuring out how to subscribe to the OSM mailing lists I moderate. The
mailman system we're using is rather confusing, especially to people who
haven't experienced mailing lists before.


> * works well for both sync and async chat
>>
>
> I completely disagree on the async chat. Maybe it would work if people
> took advantage of the conversation threading features that Slack and some
> other clients offer but they rarely do. Therefore you're stuck scanning
> pages and pages of comments looking for needles in haystacks and trying to
> reconstruct the conversations.
>

What's interesting to me about Slack is that if someone mentions you while
you're away, you'll get an email or phone notification with a link to the
context of the mention. This lets me follow important conversations or
answer questions if someone asks me directly. If I want to, I can skip over
everything else very easily. This goes back to the difference between
mailing list/forum-style communication and real-time communication with
IRC/Slack. All of these systems can (and should) exist together to support
people who prefer different styles of communication.


>
>
>> * decent search
>>
>
> It has search, but the fact that Slack's (and many others are the same)
> search is a walled garden makes its use limited.
>

Sure, messages aren't indexed by Google by default, but I've never once run
into a useful search result from IRC logs in Google. Slack's built-in
search is very useful and I use it all the time from within the app.


>
>
>> * everyone is on it
>>
>> I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay for
>> it if they asked me to.
>>
>> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on
>> the GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are
>> subscribed to the talk-us mailing list.
>>
>
> 800 people signed up for an account, but only 20 or so have a client open.
> I hadn't even logged in since September 2017 when this discussion started.
> Doesn't really sound to me like everyone is making use of Slack.
>

There are 806 people signed up and our weekly active user count is around
160 with ~4500 chats sent in the last month. There are 506 people
subscribed to the talk-us mailing list, with approximately 15% not
receiving any messages from the list and around 50 messages posted over the
last month. I think both are healthy communities and, as I said above, it's
totally OK for them to co-exist and support people who like to participate
in different ways.

-Ian
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Jeffrey Ollie]

On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 10:21 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> > I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
> community or should we look elsewhere?
>
> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.
>
> Here are some advantages..
> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
>

Signing up for a mailing list is really that hard?


> * works well for both sync and async chat
>

I completely disagree on the async chat. Maybe it would work if people took
advantage of the conversation threading features that Slack and some other
clients offer but they rarely do. Therefore you're stuck scanning pages and
pages of comments looking for needles in haystacks and trying to
reconstruct the conversations.


> * decent search
>

It has search, but the fact that Slack's (and many others are the same)
search is a walled garden makes its use limited.


> * everyone is on it
>
> I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay for
> it if they asked me to.
>
> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on
> the GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are
> subscribed to the talk-us mailing list.
>

800 people signed up for an account, but only 20 or so have a client open.
I hadn't even logged in since September 2017 when this discussion started.
Doesn't really sound to me like everyone is making use of Slack.

-- 
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The majestik møøse is one of the mäni interesting furry animals in Sweden.
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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Mike Dupont]

Hi all,
I have had good experience with riot.im matrix.org it is open source,
mobile friendly and has an irc gateway.

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
>
> Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
> >> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
> community or should we look elsewhere?
> > Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.
> >
> > Here are some advantages..
> > * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
> > * great mobile experience
> > * good for sharing files / screenshots
> > * works well for both sync and async chat
> > * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but
> also mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
> > * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything
> you want really)
> > * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people
> in to a discussion
> > * ability to mute and set availability times
> > * user profiles
> > * decent search
>
> You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
> completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
> .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).
>
> > * everyone is on it
> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>
> SImon
>
> >
> > I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay
> for it if they asked me to.
> >
> > Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very
> common situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the
> people who are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will
> be the ones who respond.
> >
> > There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000
> on the GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are
> subscribed to the talk-us mailing list.
> >
> > I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy
> things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.
> >
> > Just my thoughts
> > Thanks, Bryan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>


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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
>> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the 
>> community or should we look elsewhere?
> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.
>
> Here are some advantages..
> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
> * great mobile experience
> * good for sharing files / screenshots
> * works well for both sync and async chat
> * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but also 
> mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
> * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything you 
> want really)
> * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people in 
> to a discussion
> * ability to mute and set availability times
> * user profiles
> * decent search

You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
.. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).

> * everyone is on it
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.

SImon
 
>
> I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay for it 
> if they asked me to.
>
> Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very common 
> situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the people who 
> are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will be the ones 
> who respond.
>
> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on the 
> GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are subscribed 
> to the talk-us mailing list.  
>
> I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy 
> things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.
>
> Just my thoughts
> Thanks, Bryan
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Bryan Housel]

> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the 
> community or should we look elsewhere?

Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.

Here are some advantages..
* lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
* great mobile experience
* good for sharing files / screenshots
* works well for both sync and async chat
* emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but also mark 
things as read (like our welcome users feed)
* integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything you want 
really)
* easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people in to 
a discussion
* ability to mute and set availability times
* user profiles
* decent search
* everyone is on it

I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay for it if 
they asked me to.

Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very common 
situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the people who are 
happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will be the ones who 
respond.

There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on the 
GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are subscribed to 
the talk-us mailing list.  

I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy things 
to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.

Just my thoughts
Thanks, Bryan




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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Paul Norman]

On 2018-06-09 1:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Apart from the reasons you mentioned, having a record is also an
important factor. Anything that has gone on on these mailing lists is
practically archived forever and for all to see


This is also a good reason to ask questions on something other than 
Slack, if someone else might have the same question. A question on 
help.osm.org, an issue tracker, stackexchange, mailing lists, forums or, 
something else publicly archived can be found in the future by someone 
who has a similar question in the future.


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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 06/09/2018 04:31 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote:
> I have objections to the use of Slack in particular, and to the use of
> real-time communication tools in general (not just Slack but other tools
> like IRC, HipChat, Rocket.Chat etc.).

I think that while it would be ok for any of these to be used by a
smaller group to actually do some work, the smaller group should come
back to the mailing list for anything of importance. (The same applies
to in-person meetings btw, for example if you were to try and get an
import approved at a SotM conference or so.)

For example, a process where someone pops up on the mailing list and
says "I have this data but I don't know how to import, can someone
help", and then a smaller group huddles together on Slack/IRC/in a pub
to flesh out a proposal, which then goes back to the mailing list for
approval or feedback, would be totally ok and likely more productive
than going every step on the mailing list. But what you can't do of
course is say "we discussed this on Slack and decided we want to do it
that way, now be quiet you weren't there" when someone suggests an
improvement on the list later.

Apart from the reasons you mentioned, having a record is also an
important factor. Anything that has gone on on these mailing lists is
practically archived forever and for all to see[*] but when I'm told "we
discussed this on Slack" I have no chance of checking if there was
indeed a discussion or just one guy with a big mouth and two of his pals
applauding ;)

Bye
Frederik

[*] minus things like the EU data protection regulations forcing us to
remove someone who wants to be forgotten - but they will live on in my
personal email folder, har har.

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Jeffrey Ollie]

I have objections to the use of Slack in particular, and to the use of
real-time communication tools in general (not just Slack but other tools
like IRC, HipChat, Rocket.Chat etc.).

My objections to Slack in particular primarily come down to the fact that
using it puts too much control in the hands of a commercial entity. IANAL
and I haven't read the terms of service but I'd certainly be more
comfortable using open source software running on OSM servers.

My objection to real-time communication tools in general that it limits
visibility of and participation in discussions from less dedicated members
of the community.

First, the real-time nature of the communication means that noise tends to
overwhelm the signal. I don't keep Slack or other tools open at work - it's
just too distracting. When I get home in the evenings I'm not going to wade
through the past 24+ hours of discussion looking for fragments of
discussions I might be interested in. Some tools (like Slack) have
attempted to re-invent threaded conversations but I haven't seen them
widely used yet.

Second, most of the tools are only searchable from within themselves.
External search indexes like Google and Bing can't or won't index the
content. On some platforms (IRC in particular) there are a lot of people
that expect all discussions to be ephemeral and not archived at all.

That said, I'm not totally against the use of such real-time communication
tools. For things where real-time interaction is essential (Is X up? How do
I Y? Am I doing Z right?) it's great. For social chit-chat it's great. For
anything else I'm not so sure.


On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> SteveA wrote:
>
> At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after
> reading Slack's Terms of Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion,
> really), I could not and do not abide with the ways which Slack (and other
> proprietary, not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our
> community into "those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford
> has acknowledged this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up
> about this again whenever I see this invitation to Slack again and again.
>
> I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen
> because some of us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers
> to seriously (re-?)consider that there are well-established, perfectly
> useful communication methods (email, wiki, talk-us, face-to-face,
> meetups/Mapping Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps laden with
> hidden, commercial code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the
> private realm of a for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data
> project, I remain puzzled why OSM volunteers do this.
>
> Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought
> up before) is that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app"
> that we either develop our own or choose some open-source version of one
> without onerous License Terms that MANY (not just me) find offensive.
>
> Is that possible?
>
> Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.
>
> SteveA
> California
> OSM Volunteer since 2009
>
> Steve,
> I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications.
> For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the
> Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to
> the community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and
> even more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is
> dead.
>
> Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects
> of what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be
> engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want
> to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other
> forms of communications, means the community has chosen.
>
> I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists
> to communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to
> nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that
> maybe because people use Slack in their day job.
>
> I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more
> agreeable terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is
> objectionable?
>
> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
> community or should we look elsewhere?
>
> Best,
> Clifford
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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>


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[Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Clifford Snow]

SteveA wrote:

At least once, Clifford invited me to join Slack as well.  However, after
reading Slack's Terms of Service Agreement (a contract of adhesion,
really), I could not and do not abide with the ways which Slack (and other
proprietary, not-open-source/open-data communication platforms) divide our
community into "those who Slack" and "those who don't."  Even as Clifford
has acknowledged this issue in these posts, I feel compelled to speak up
about this again whenever I see this invitation to Slack again and again.

I don't wish to throw rocks at the good process and results which happen
because some of us collaborate on Slack.  I do wish to urge OSM volunteers
to seriously (re-?)consider that there are well-established, perfectly
useful communication methods (email, wiki, talk-us, face-to-face,
meetups/Mapping Parties...) which do not require "shiny apps laden with
hidden, commercial code" that ask us to cloak our communication into the
private realm of a for-profit company.  As an open-source/open-data
project, I remain puzzled why OSM volunteers do this.

Perhaps what I'm suggesting (again?  I seem to recall it has been brought
up before) is that if OSM uses a "live-collaboration communication app"
that we either develop our own or choose some open-source version of one
without onerous License Terms that MANY (not just me) find offensive.

Is that possible?

Thanks for reading.  I mean this in the best interests of OSM longer-term.

SteveA
California
OSM Volunteer since 2009

Steve,
I must admit I like Slack better than some other forms of communications.
For example, I don't participate on any OSM forums. IRC is nice, but the
Slack, as a version of IRC, is just better. Since Slack was introduced to
the community I've notice the talk-us mailing list traffic has slowed and
even more so is the #osm-us IRC channel which for all practical purposes is
dead.

Communications within the community is one of the most important aspects of
what makes our community thrive. We need tools that allow people to be
engaged in discussions and process to be successful. Tools that people want
to use. To me, seeing the number of people that use Slack compared to other
forms of communications, means the community has chosen.

I'm also part of a open source community that uses IRC and mailing lists to
communicate. When Slack was introduced, just like OSM, traffic drop to
nothing on IRC and mainly announcements on the mailing list. Part of that
maybe because people use Slack in their day job.

I don't wouldn't have any objections to another platform with more
agreeable terms of service. But what specifically to Slack's terms is
objectionable?

I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
community or should we look elsewhere?

Best,
Clifford
-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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