Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
I posted a changeset comment in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76520412 Dec 6, 2020, 08:00 by m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us: > Vào lúc 03:01 2020-12-04, Frederik Ramm đã viết: > >> Hi, >> >> when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for >> Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad >> name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." >> (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be >> just Washington, without the D.C. >> >> As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US >> capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that >> it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at >> https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 >> has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local >> name is different, the local name below; since the German name >> "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this >> leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other >> US cities). >> >> I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a >> more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. >> >> Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) >> look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of >> Columbia only: >> >> name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia >> name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia >> > > Most of these localized names were added in changeset 76520412 [1] based on > labels on the associated Wikidata item. [2] So this time it was not a case of > promoting a particular minority language. In fact, I don't think much > attention was paid to the names being added, or perhaps the Tajik name > would've remained to the effect of "Washington District of Columbia" instead > of being changed to "Washington (city)". > > This same changeset changed the name of the District of Columbia relation to > "Washington, D.C." in many languages, including English. [3] This results in > Nominatim returning results like "Washington, D.C., Washington, D.C." I think > it was inappropriate to rename the district this way. I think it was another > oversight on the part of the changeset's author, because Wikidata has a > distinct entity for the district. [4] > > [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76520412 > [2] https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q61 > [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/162069 > [4] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3551781 > >> Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so >> perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the >> US community wants to have a look and do this right. >> >> It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge >> tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might >> not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) >> > > As others have pointed out, a local would refer to the city as "D.C." even > while acknowledging that the city's formal written name is "Washington" or > "Washington, D.C." I think common sense would require us to relegate "D.C." > to loc_name or short_name, just as a general-purpose, global map would only > shorten San Francisco to the local shorthand "S.F." and Salt Lake City to > "SLC" when space is at a premium. > > Thanks in part to the D.C.-based Voice of America, I'm sure you could find a > local to get the translated name of Washington, D.C., for many languages, but > I'm not confident they would choose the same names as Wikidata. > > For example, both VOA and the local Vietnamese media still generally call the > city "Hoa Thịnh Đốn", a relic of the early 20th century when Vietnamese still > borrowed Chinese characters for world-class cities. "Hoa Thịnh Đốn" is easy > for a Vietnamese speaker to pronounce, but it only kind of sounds like > "Washington" in the way that an eggcorn sounds like its original phrase. It's > archaic and probably unknown to the younger generation in Vietnam. The > Vietnamese government prefers the phonetic respelling "Oa-sinh-tơn", which > conversely is unknown to older Vietnamese Americans. > > When I originally tagged the D.C. node with Vietnamese names in changeset > 5439052, I intended for the fallback to be "Washington", as a compromise > between the traditional and more modern names. But I hesitated to explicitly > tag name:vi=Washington because it's incompatible with the Vietnamese > alphabet. I guess I should've added it as a bulwark against armchair > linguistics. Changeset 76520412 set name:vi to "Washington, D.C.", which to a > Vietnamese speaker is rather like labeling New Orleans as "New Orleans, LA" > on a map. > > Long story short, I find changeset 76520412 to be problematic in the > languages I know, let alone the many languages I don't. Thanks for bringing > it to our attention. > > -- >
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Vào lúc 03:01 2020-12-04, Frederik Ramm đã viết: Hi, when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be just Washington, without the D.C. As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local name is different, the local name below; since the German name "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other US cities). I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of Columbia only: name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia Most of these localized names were added in changeset 76520412 [1] based on labels on the associated Wikidata item. [2] So this time it was not a case of promoting a particular minority language. In fact, I don't think much attention was paid to the names being added, or perhaps the Tajik name would've remained to the effect of "Washington District of Columbia" instead of being changed to "Washington (city)". This same changeset changed the name of the District of Columbia relation to "Washington, D.C." in many languages, including English. [3] This results in Nominatim returning results like "Washington, D.C., Washington, D.C." I think it was inappropriate to rename the district this way. I think it was another oversight on the part of the changeset's author, because Wikidata has a distinct entity for the district. [4] [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76520412 [2] https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q61 [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/162069 [4] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3551781 Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the US community wants to have a look and do this right. It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) As others have pointed out, a local would refer to the city as "D.C." even while acknowledging that the city's formal written name is "Washington" or "Washington, D.C." I think common sense would require us to relegate "D.C." to loc_name or short_name, just as a general-purpose, global map would only shorten San Francisco to the local shorthand "S.F." and Salt Lake City to "SLC" when space is at a premium. Thanks in part to the D.C.-based Voice of America, I'm sure you could find a local to get the translated name of Washington, D.C., for many languages, but I'm not confident they would choose the same names as Wikidata. For example, both VOA and the local Vietnamese media still generally call the city "Hoa Thịnh Đốn", a relic of the early 20th century when Vietnamese still borrowed Chinese characters for world-class cities. "Hoa Thịnh Đốn" is easy for a Vietnamese speaker to pronounce, but it only kind of sounds like "Washington" in the way that an eggcorn sounds like its original phrase. It's archaic and probably unknown to the younger generation in Vietnam. The Vietnamese government prefers the phonetic respelling "Oa-sinh-tơn", which conversely is unknown to older Vietnamese Americans. When I originally tagged the D.C. node with Vietnamese names in changeset 5439052, I intended for the fallback to be "Washington", as a compromise between the traditional and more modern names. But I hesitated to explicitly tag name:vi=Washington because it's incompatible with the Vietnamese alphabet. I guess I should've added it as a bulwark against armchair linguistics. Changeset 76520412 set name:vi to "Washington, D.C.", which to a Vietnamese speaker is rather like labeling New Orleans as "New Orleans, LA" on a map. Long story short, I find changeset 76520412 to be problematic in the languages I know, let alone the many languages I don't. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
On 12/4/20 3:43 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 04.12.20 12:33, Mikel Maron wrote: I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, seems unneccesary? FYI, other cases of this exist. States are usually assumed to completely partition a country, but there are lots of federal districts that are not in a state. I think Mexico City and Brasilia are both like this. If not, it is Friday. My apologies. Every now and then we have an avid fan of language X go around the globe and add name:X tags, it always looks to me like an attempt at making the language more relevant (especially if name:X==name). "Hey, language X is not dead yet, we still call Washington Washington!!!" Well, there are cases you would want names in, for example, Russian. Most Russian speakers can, I suspect, sound out words in the Latin alphabet, but it is a thing. And if you wanted to start a fight, you could go around tagging things with Kurdish language versions. That would be fun, yes? :-- I have often argued for just dropping name:X if it is the name as name, because I would assume that every language-specific map or other use case would revert to the name tag if no language-specific name was present. Automated crawlers could find these. Are there any crawlers doing this and putting up edits? The counter-argument was usually that if Washington has a name:de=Washington then you positively know that this is the name used in Germany, whereas if it doesn't have a name:de tag it might just be "not yet mapped". Fat chance with name:de ;) Yeah, Germans. I had a German manager once who spoke at a very large public gathering and mentioned "America and the 53 states". There was much hilarity. Of course, he was right that because lists of states sometimes need to include Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Marshall Islands. It took a bit of time to realize that, though. We all learn, every day. cheers - ray Bye Frederik ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Native en-US speaker here. The city of Washington and the District of Columbia are coterminous. Toponyms such as 'Georgetown', 'Anacostial', 'University Heights', refer to neighbourhoods within the city. It's quite common in the US to say, 'D.C.' when talking about the city - perhaps even commoner than saying 'Washington'. There are many contexts in which the city and state of Washington introduce an ambiguity, so it's also pretty common to say, 'Washington State' if context doesn't make it clear that the state is what's intended. The full name, 'District of Columbia', is almost never used colloquially; it's always abbreviated when speaking. On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:04 AM Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for > Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad > name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." > (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be > just Washington, without the D.C. > > As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US > capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that > it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at > https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 > has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local > name is different, the local name below; since the German name > "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this > leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other > US cities). > > I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a > more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. > > Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) > look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of > Columbia only: > > name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia > name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia > > Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so > perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the > US community wants to have a look and do this right. > > It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge > tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might > not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Dec 4, 2020, 12:43 by frede...@remote.org: > I have often argued for just dropping name:X if it is the name as name, > because I would assume that every language-specific map or other use > case would revert to the name tag if no language-specific name was present. > > The counter-argument was usually that if Washington has a > name:de=Washington then you positively know that this is the name used > in Germany, whereas if it doesn't have a name:de tag it might just be > "not yet mapped". > Also, with explicit language tags you can do fallback to other languages (as described in detail in other posting). This way you can do "I prefer name:pl, use name:de otherwise, if neither is present use name:en, if nothing is available, use name tag". ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
name:pl tag is fortunately correct Dec 4, 2020, 12:33 by mikel.ma...@gmail.com: > Hi > > In DC, we just say DC usually. Across the states, it's Washington DC to > distinguish from Washington state. > > I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point > of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a > marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, > seems unneccesary? > It may be useful. For example lets say that I want to display names with labels in Polish, with English labels as fallback. After all, some location in China or Japan may have specified name:en, but not name:pl So name:pl value would be taken as the first one, name:en if name:pl is missing and name tag if both are missing. But what happens when some object has Polish name[1], tagged in name and different name tagged in name:en? Then name:en would be displayed, what would be avoided if name tag would be repeated in name:pl tag. [1](maybe because it is city in Poland, maybe because it is shop in USA selling primarily to Polish-speaking people, maybe it is a school for children of emigrants) (this is based on actual project, both from my own experience and someone else from Poland run independently in the same issue) PS: No, region-based rules are not working fully even for languages that are nearly completely dominating in a given region and are nearly not present elsewhere, due to "nearly" part. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Hi, On 04.12.20 12:33, Mikel Maron wrote: > I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point > of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a > marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, > seems unneccesary? Every now and then we have an avid fan of language X go around the globe and add name:X tags, it always looks to me like an attempt at making the language more relevant (especially if name:X==name). "Hey, language X is not dead yet, we still call Washington Washington!!!" I have often argued for just dropping name:X if it is the name as name, because I would assume that every language-specific map or other use case would revert to the name tag if no language-specific name was present. The counter-argument was usually that if Washington has a name:de=Washington then you positively know that this is the name used in Germany, whereas if it doesn't have a name:de tag it might just be "not yet mapped". Fat chance with name:de ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Hi In DC, we just say DC usually. Across the states, it's Washington DC to distinguish from Washington state. I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, seems unneccesary? Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron On Friday, December 4, 2020, 06:04:49 AM EST, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be just Washington, without the D.C. As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local name is different, the local name below; since the German name "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other US cities). I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of Columbia only: name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the US community wants to have a look and do this right. It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Hi, when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be just Washington, without the D.C. As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local name is different, the local name below; since the German name "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other US cities). I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of Columbia only: name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the US community wants to have a look and do this right. It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
