Re: [OSM-talk] Speedflying lines on OSM
Hi, On 4/14/24 07:31, Pesho Ivanov wrote: 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be improved by mappers Can you elaborate on that? How can I go to a place and see "ah, obviously there's a speedflying line here"? And if two speedflyers disagree over whether the "correct" line is 20 metres to the west or 20 metres to the east, how can they meet at the location and settle their dispute by looking at the ground? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Speedflying lines on OSM
Thank you for the immediate feedback, LaoshuBaby. > If other mappers on the ground can also confirm the existence of your > speedflying route (of course, this might require the mapper to have > experience in speedflying, but among the many mappers worldwide, there are > bound to be others with the relevant background knowledge) Yes, surely observers can verify the existence of speedflying lines, in a pretty straight-forward analogy with climbing areas and climbing routes. Some landings and takeoffs are shared with paragliding pilots, and already exist in OSM. The descriptions of most speedflying lines indeed include not only the takeoff and landing but such limiting features like ridges, cracks, valleys, power lines and cable cars. Regarding FOSS, it is indeed amazing how much is possible on top of OSM. I guess, the main reason to prefer the OSM database is to benefit from the general adoption of OSM maps. Pesho On Sunday, April 14th, 2024 at 1:57 AM, 快乐的老鼠宝宝 wrote: > > > > 2) speedflying lines are not orthogonal to on-the-ground mapping -- very > > dependent on hazards like the relief and mapped OSM features such as cable > > cars, electricity lines, ski-pists ... > > > 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be > > improved by mappers > > > Firstly, personally, I find these two points very important, as OSM requires > verifiability, as seen in [reply1-1]. > > If other mappers on the ground can also confirm the existence of your > speedflying route (of course, this might require the mapper to have > experience in speedflying, but among the many mappers worldwide, there are > bound to be others with the relevant background knowledge), > > Then perhaps we can treat it like sports such as golf and skiing. Therefore, > I am inclined to vote approve it when raise a proposal. > > As for other geographical features that serve as important landmarks (such as > iconic trees), perhaps they can be created within the route's relation? > > > 8) speedflying information is unavailable in any free (free as in FOSS) > > database, and for countries away from the Alps it is hard to find even > > private maps > > > Because the technology of OSM is FOSS (Free and Open Source Software), we are > able to have a very large and rich array of downstream projects. > > In theory, even if you are not allowed to draw those route, you can use OSM's > tiles as a basemap and maintain a database that only contains speedflying > routes, using the OSM technology stack (just like OpenGeofiction). > > And since your "OpenSpeedflyingMap" would only contain data on flying routes, > it would be quite simple to render an overlay. > > (Of course, this is based on the assumption that your proposal is rejected, > but even if your addition to OSM is turned down, you could still try to share > routes in an open knowledge way (I am also looking forward to seeing someone > do this, even though I am not an extreme sports enthusiast)) > > [reply1-1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability > > > LaoshuBaby (aka. 快乐的老鼠宝宝) > > 2024年4月14日 星期日 下午 1:31，Pesho Ivanov iva...@pesho.info 来信： > > > Hi OSM contributors, > > > > As a pilot and a contributor to FOSS, I want to contribute available > > speedflying lines to OSM for the good of the pilots and everyone who > > potentially intersects with them on the ground (skiers, property owners, > > forest rangers, etc.). Following the aviation recommendations [2], I first > > want to first discuss this idea with the OSM community. > > > > Speedflying is a type of paragliding which is mostly about proximity flying > > (very low over the ground) or even speedriding (simultaneous skiing and > > flying). In order to share information between each other, pilots are > > plotting speedflying lines over maps (see [1] for an aggregation of lines > > which the authors agree on importing to OSM). > > > > The Aviation recommendations in OSM [2] mostly ban airspace information in > > OSM and I agree with this premise — since aviation information is mostly > > independent from Earth mapping and use. Nevertheless, unlike aviation, > > speedflying is a sport of flying short downward lines, staying zero to tens > > of meters/feet above ground, which makes the whole sport primarily dictated > > by the relief and what sticks out of it (incl. buildings, ski slopes, cable > > cars, electricity lines, etc). This makes speedflying lines very different > > from any aviation routes, and rather resemble climbing routes in OSM [3]. > > > > Next, I want to argument my opinion that speedflying lines belong to OSM by > > commenting on all the rational points in the Aviation wiki page [2]: > > 1) speedflying lines often coincide with existing features, like a river, > > ridge, valley. speedflying routes are mainly determined by the relief > > 2) speedflying lines are not orthogonal to on-the-ground mapping -- very > > dependent on
Re: [OSM-talk] Speedflying lines on OSM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 > 2) speedflying lines are not orthogonal to on-the-ground mapping -- very > dependent on hazards like the relief and mapped OSM features such as cable > cars, electricity lines, ski-pists ... > 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be > improved by mappers Firstly, personally, I find these two points very important, as OSM requires verifiability, as seen in [reply1-1]. If other mappers on the ground can also confirm the existence of your speedflying route (of course, this might require the mapper to have experience in speedflying, but among the many mappers worldwide, there are bound to be others with the relevant background knowledge), Then perhaps we can treat it like sports such as golf and skiing. Therefore, I am inclined to vote approve it when raise a proposal. As for other geographical features that serve as important landmarks (such as iconic trees), perhaps they can be created within the route's relation? > 8) speedflying information is unavailable in any free (free as in FOSS) > database, and for countries away from the Alps it is hard to find even > private maps Because the technology of OSM is FOSS (Free and Open Source Software), we are able to have a very large and rich array of downstream projects. In theory, even if you are not allowed to draw those route, you can use OSM's tiles as a basemap and maintain a database that only contains speedflying routes, using the OSM technology stack (just like OpenGeofiction). And since your "OpenSpeedflyingMap" would only contain data on flying routes, it would be quite simple to render an overlay. (Of course, this is based on the assumption that your proposal is rejected, but even if your addition to OSM is turned down, you could still try to share routes in an open knowledge way (I am also looking forward to seeing someone do this, even though I am not an extreme sports enthusiast)) [reply1-1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability LaoshuBaby (aka. 快乐的老鼠宝宝) 2024年4月14日 星期日 下午 1:31，Pesho Ivanov 来信： > Hi OSM contributors, > > As a pilot and a contributor to FOSS, I want to contribute available > speedflying lines to OSM for the good of the pilots and everyone who > potentially intersects with them on the ground (skiers, property owners, > forest rangers, etc.). Following the aviation recommendations [2], I first > want to first discuss this idea with the OSM community. > > Speedflying is a type of paragliding which is mostly about proximity flying > (very low over the ground) or even speedriding (simultaneous skiing and > flying). In order to share information between each other, pilots are > plotting speedflying lines over maps (see [1] for an aggregation of lines > which the authors agree on importing to OSM). > > The Aviation recommendations in OSM [2] mostly ban airspace information in > OSM and I agree with this premise — since aviation information is mostly > independent from Earth mapping and use. Nevertheless, unlike aviation, > speedflying is a sport of flying short downward lines, staying zero to tens > of meters/feet above ground, which makes the whole sport primarily dictated > by the relief and what sticks out of it (incl. buildings, ski slopes, cable > cars, electricity lines, etc). This makes speedflying lines very different > from any aviation routes, and rather resemble climbing routes in OSM [3]. > > Next, I want to argument my opinion that speedflying lines belong to OSM by > commenting on all the rational points in the Aviation wiki page [2]: > 1) speedflying lines often coincide with existing features, like a river, > ridge, valley. speedflying routes are mainly determined by the relief > 2) speedflying lines are not orthogonal to on-the-ground mapping -- very > dependent on hazards like the relief and mapped OSM features such as cable > cars, electricity lines, ski-pists (mostly forbidden to speedride or land on > them), forests, protected areas (often forbidden to fly over), and also > reusing takeoffs and landings appearing on OSM [4]; speedflying lines are > mostly independent of other aviation > 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be > improved by mappers > 4) speedflying routes are generally not governed by authorities and the > available maps are spread among private self-made google maps (owned by > speedflyers all of whom I asked, were very passionate about importing to OSM > since they stop maintaining them) > 5) speedflying lines are generally short and in the mountains so they rarely > intersect something when plotted on 2D (mostly with a ski-pist or a cable car) > 6) speedflying lines are of significance for skiers who may share or neighbor > takeoffs, landings or offpist ski-riding, as well as of interest of property > owners of nearby huts, restaurants, rangers, etc. > 7) speedflying is fastly growing in popularity, there are
[OSM-talk] Speedflying lines on OSM
Hi OSM contributors, As a pilot and a contributor to FOSS, I want to contribute available speedflying lines to OSM for the good of the pilots and everyone who potentially intersects with them on the ground (skiers, property owners, forest rangers, etc.). Following the aviation recommendations [2], I first want to first discuss this idea with the OSM community. Speedflying is a type of paragliding which is mostly about proximity flying (very low over the ground) or even speedriding (simultaneous skiing and flying). In order to share information between each other, pilots are plotting speedflying lines over maps (see [1] for an aggregation of lines which the authors agree on importing to OSM). The Aviation recommendations in OSM [2] mostly ban airspace information in OSM and I agree with this premise — since aviation information is mostly independent from Earth mapping and use. Nevertheless, unlike aviation, speedflying is a sport of flying short downward lines, staying zero to tens of meters/feet above ground, which makes the whole sport primarily dictated by the relief and what sticks out of it (incl. buildings, ski slopes, cable cars, electricity lines, etc). This makes speedflying lines very different from any aviation routes, and rather resemble climbing routes in OSM [3]. Next, I want to argument my opinion that speedflying lines belong to OSM by commenting on all the rational points in the Aviation wiki page [2]: 1) speedflying lines often coincide with existing features, like a river, ridge, valley. speedflying routes are mainly determined by the relief 2) speedflying lines are not orthogonal to on-the-ground mapping -- very dependent on hazards like the relief and mapped OSM features such as cable cars, electricity lines, ski-pists (mostly forbidden to speedride or land on them), forests, protected areas (often forbidden to fly over), and also reusing takeoffs and landings appearing on OSM [4]; speedflying lines are mostly independent of other aviation 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be improved by mappers 4) speedflying routes are generally not governed by authorities and the available maps are spread among private self-made google maps (owned by speedflyers all of whom I asked, were very passionate about importing to OSM since they stop maintaining them) 5) speedflying lines are generally short and in the mountains so they rarely intersect something when plotted on 2D (mostly with a ski-pist or a cable car) 6) speedflying lines are of significance for skiers who may share or neighbor takeoffs, landings or offpist ski-riding, as well as of interest of property owners of nearby huts, restaurants, rangers, etc. 7) speedflying is fastly growing in popularity, there are schools on speedflying specifically, and access to information is needed for the safety of the pilots and the surroundings 8) speedflying information is unavailable in any free (free as in FOSS) database, and for countries away from the Alps it is hard to find even private maps 9) speedflying lines are easily plotted in 2D since most of the flying is close to ground (altitude depending mostly on the glide and the level of experience); 3D does not add much information 10) speedflying lines do not intersect with regulated airspaces, do not depend on air traffic, runways or other aviation (other than sharing takeoffs and landings with paragliders) so they won't flood the existing OSM maps 11) the weather is a random factor that may make a line not flyable, or may require higher caution, etc. but it can hardly change the possible routes 12) the low glide and the high sink-rate limits speedflying to roughly the planned route; unlike paragliding, improvising with takeoffs and landings is almost impossible (experts may say that they "found a line" which is a very precious knowledge) 13) speedflying information is not published officially so the main information contributors are sole pilots who are willing to contribute their knowledge to the community (e.g. the author of [1]) I hope to have convinced you that despite of technically flying, speedflying is a dictated by the Earth makes it a natural match with OSM. I will be glad to receive your feedback. [1] speedflyingmap.ch [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aviation [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Climbing [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dfree_flying Best, Pesho Ivanov, PhD Pennsylvania State University ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
