Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Adam Franco]

Robert, I applaud the Victoria government for using and collaborating on
OSM data! As others have shared I think direct government involvement with
and contributions to OSM are a great strategic direction.

Here in the USA our federal government is required by law to put all of its
publications in the public domain, which unfortunately disallows direct
contributions to OSM (though this public domain data is of course cleared
for inclusion in OSM by non-government contributors). In light of this
legal requirement, the OpenStreetMap-US foundation has partnered with US
Government agencies on the Public Domain Map project
. This project
utilizes modified versions of the OSM tool-chain (database, schemas,
editors, etc) to allow government staff and volunteers to create and
validate map data in the public domain, making it possible to incorporate
in US Government works and be readied for downstream inclusion in OSM.

I wouldn't want to suggest that Public Domain Map is the best option if
national laws allow direct contributions to ODBl datasets, but did want to
mention it as I feel that Public Domain Map is a clever work-around to our
local legal situation that brings our government as close as it can to
preparing data for OSM without violating its own licencing rules.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 8:13 PM Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi OSM,
>
> Representing the state transport authority (Department of Transport and
> Planning) we have made the strategic decision to use OSM as our
> foundational mapping data source.  We are confident that this is a decision
> will be of value to both ourselves improving the management of the networks
> (road, Train, Bus, tram) and adding significantly to the citizens of the
> state.
>
> Our intended use of OSM is built on an extract being done then validating
> that extract for the gazetted/official place and road names. The resultant
> validated dataset will be shared that via our Opendata portal.  Our state
> government has a strong commitment to sharing all data openly.  We are
> currently developing that process and should be in production by the end of
> the year.
>
> Alas, there has been concern from our distribution partners with the ODbl
> license requirement to "Share alike".  You know these companies; Google,
> Here, Tomtom and Apple.
>
> The information we would share, and all shared as ODbl;
>
>- Disruptions
>- Heavy vehicles
>- Bicycles routes
>- Public transport routes and timetables
>
> I am wondering how we, can continue engage with these partners and use and
> improve OSM.
>
>
>
> If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Robert Potter
>
> *Helping people use the power of location to make better decisions*
>
> Manager, Spatial Data Strategy
> Department of Transport and Planning
>
> 1 Spring Street
>
> MELBOURNE 3000
>
>
> *M *0402 484 739
>
> *F* 03 9935 4111
> *E *robert.pot...@roads.vic.gov.au
> *W dtp.vic.gov.au *
>
>
> I acknowledge the Traditional Aboriginal Owners of Country throughout
> Victoria and pay my respect to Elders past and present and emerging and to
> the ongoing living culture of Aboriginal people.
>
> DISCLAIMER
>
> The following conditions apply to this communication and any attachments:
> VicRoads reserves all of its copyright; the information is intended for the
> addressees only and may be confidential and/or privileged - it must not be
> passed on by any other recipients; any expressed opinions are those of the
> sender and not necessarily VicRoads; VicRoads accepts no liability for any
> consequences arising from the recipient's use of this means of
> communication and/or the information contained in and/or attached to this
> communication. If this communication has been received in error, please
> contact the person who sent this communication and delete all copies.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Jul 3, 2023, 18:08 by marc_m...@mailo.com:

> Le 03.07.23 à 16:10, Cj Malone a écrit :
>
>> On Mon, 2023-07-03 at 00:05 +, Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Google, Tomtom and Apple.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe it's not their preferred license, but they already use odbl data.
>>
>
> for Tomtom and Appel, of course they use it, including osm.
>
> but any reference about "google using ODBl" ?
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:OpenStreetMap_data_used_by_Google_Maps.png
Use for overlay public transport data.

public transport company in Warsaw uses OSM, published
timetable/route feed with required attribution, Google attributed OSM
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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Cj Malone]

On Mon, 2023-07-03 at 18:03 +0200, Marc_marc wrote:
> Le 03.07.23 à 16:10, Cj Malone a écrit :
> > On Mon, 2023-07-03 at 00:05 +, Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk
> > wrote:
> > > Google, Tomtom and Apple.
> > 
> > Maybe it's not their preferred license, but they already use odbl
> > data.
> 
> for Tomtom and Appel, of course they use it, including osm.
> 
> but any reference about "google using ODBl" ?

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2021-October/087049.html


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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Hartmut Holzgraefe]

On 03.07.23 18:03, Marc_marc wrote:

but any reference about "google using ODBl" ?


via their Niantec subsidiary for Pocemon Go?

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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Marc_marc]

Le 03.07.23 à 16:10, Cj Malone a écrit :

On Mon, 2023-07-03 at 00:05 +, Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk
wrote:

Google, Tomtom and Apple.


Maybe it's not their preferred license, but they already use odbl data.


for Tomtom and Appel, of course they use it, including osm.

but any reference about "google using ODBl" ?




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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Cj Malone]

On Mon, 2023-07-03 at 00:05 +, Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk
wrote:
> Google, Tomtom and Apple.

Maybe it's not their preferred license, but they already use odbl data.

CJ



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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Andrew Harvey]

Hi Robert,

To preface, I'm not a lawyer and your should seek your own independent
legal advice, but as I understand:

1. the department has made a decision to adopt OSM as your data source,
accepting the terms this data is licensed under
2. you will adapt, modify, enhance, correct or extend OSM data with your
gazetted place and road names, which likely creates a Derivative Database
under the ODbL, we'll call this DTP Validated OSM
3. where you make this DTP Validated OSM data available to others, like
your distribution partners or the public via your open data portal, it must
continue to be licensed under the ODbL.
4. The implication for your distribution partners would likely be if they
want to further adapt, enhance, correct or extend your DTP Validated OSM
data, and they then use that adapted data publicly, they must continue to
license their adaptations under the ODbL, ie. the license is viral.
5. There is nothing here preventing these distribution partners using your
DTP Validated OSM data, or making further changes or adaptations to it. If
they don't accept the terms then they don't need to use your data.

One alternative, if you create your data independently of OSM may be to
publish it with only references to OSM, e.g. to OSM object IDs or with
location references eg. OpenLR. If created independently you may be able to
license as you wish.

You could in parallel still publish a full osm derived version of the data
under ODbL for convenience for those who accept the ODbL terms.

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 at 10:13, Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi OSM,
>
> Representing the state transport authority (Department of Transport and
> Planning) we have made the strategic decision to use OSM as our
> foundational mapping data source.  We are confident that this is a decision
> will be of value to both ourselves improving the management of the networks
> (road, Train, Bus, tram) and adding significantly to the citizens of the
> state.
>
> Our intended use of OSM is built on an extract being done then validating
> that extract for the gazetted/official place and road names. The resultant
> validated dataset will be shared that via our Opendata portal.  Our state
> government has a strong commitment to sharing all data openly.  We are
> currently developing that process and should be in production by the end of
> the year.
>
> Alas, there has been concern from our distribution partners with the ODbl
> license requirement to "Share alike".  You know these companies; Google,
> Here, Tomtom and Apple.
>
> The information we would share, and all shared as ODbl;
>
>- Disruptions
>- Heavy vehicles
>- Bicycles routes
>- Public transport routes and timetables
>
> I am wondering how we, can continue engage with these partners and use and
> improve OSM.
>
>
>
> If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Robert Potter
>
> *Helping people use the power of location to make better decisions*
>
> Manager, Spatial Data Strategy
> Department of Transport and Planning
>
> 1 Spring Street
>
> MELBOURNE 3000
>
>
> *M *0402 484 739
>
> *F* 03 9935 4111
> *E *robert.pot...@roads.vic.gov.au
> *W dtp.vic.gov.au *
>
>
> I acknowledge the Traditional Aboriginal Owners of Country throughout
> Victoria and pay my respect to Elders past and present and emerging and to
> the ongoing living culture of Aboriginal people.
>
> DISCLAIMER
>
> The following conditions apply to this communication and any attachments:
> VicRoads reserves all of its copyright; the information is intended for the
> addressees only and may be confidential and/or privileged - it must not be
> passed on by any other recipients; any expressed opinions are those of the
> sender and not necessarily VicRoads; VicRoads accepts no liability for any
> consequences arising from the recipient's use of this means of
> communication and/or the information contained in and/or attached to this
> communication. If this communication has been received in error, please
> contact the person who sent this communication and delete all copies.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Greg Troxel]

"Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk"  writes:

> Our intended use of OSM is built on an extract being done then
> validating that extract for the gazetted/official place and road
> names. The resultant validated dataset will be shared that via our
> Opendata portal.  Our state government has a strong commitment to
> sharing all data openly.  We are currently developing that process and
> should be in production by the end of the year.
>
> Alas, there has been concern from our distribution partners with the
> ODbl license requirement to "Share alike".  You know these companies;
> Google, Here, Tomtom and Apple.
>
> The information we would share, and all shared as ODbl;
>
>   *   Disruptions
>   *   Heavy vehicles
>   *   Bicycles routes
>   *   Public transport routes and timetables
>
> I am wondering how we, can continue engage with these partners and use
> and improve OSM.

With individual mapper hat on:

First, thank you for taking the time to understand OSM's license and for
respecting it.

I think you basically have to choose between:

  Use OSM.  Publish data under the ODbL.  Realize that some companies,
  perhaps because their business models involve creating non-free
  derived works of free data, will not want to use this data.  Decide
  that this is their problem, not your problem, because you made the
  data available under reasonable terms.  You can likely, for fairly
  small expense, pay for custom development of OSM-world mapping
  applications to add suport for your new data.

  Don't use OSM data at all.  Publish data as public domain.  Realize
  that some companies will process this data and use it commercially,
  perhaps with invasive ads, while not allowing those who obtain the
  data to have rights to copy/modify/share.  Consider the ethical issues
  surrounding the relationship of your citizens with this distribution
  arrangement, after reviewing your legal requirements about how to act.

My bias is probably clear; I believe governments have a duty to their
citizens, not to big companies.

If you mean, "is there any way that data derived from OSM can be used in
a (legitimate) proprietary manner by these companies?", then I think the
answer is no, there isn't.

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