Hi
Thanks to all the information here. I can put more items to my experiment
list.
Regads
Li Ang, BI7LNQ
2016-01-11 11:28 GMT+08:00 Magnus Danielson :
> Moin,
>
> On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
>> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>>
>> SR-flipflop?
Moin,
On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly
Am 10.01.2016 um 22:47 schrieb Alexander Pummer:
and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices,
which took care about that dead zone
AD9901.
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
73, Gerhard, DK4XP
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To u
and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices, which
took care about that dead zone
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 1/10/2016 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044)
being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or rac
"generate stable high -frequency signals with d flip-flops as digital
mixers ans all -IC low frequency phase -locked loop", by R.Treadway and
L.J. Reed, page 78 Electronic design 1 January 1972
Resistot array denounces D flip-flop mixer page 184 EDN 12 April 1990
digital frequency subtract or
Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044)
being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or race
conditions. Motorola showed a block diagram made of gates,
as if it were combinatorial logic, but because of the feedback,
it is actually a state machine, as described in the
On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
>
> A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
> Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded
> that was no
Hi
> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
> Moin phk!
>
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +
> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote:
>
>>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>>> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>>
>> Would paralleing mul
God eftermiddag,
On 01/10/2016 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
God morgon,
On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
it from a normal mix
On 01/10/2016 11:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
Moin phk!
On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote:
Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make
Moin phk!
On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +
"Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote:
> >Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
> >(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>
> Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
> better or worse ?
Good question
God morgon,
On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
> > but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
> > it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
> >
Hi
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>>
>
> Generally speaking: Faster CMOS better than slower CMOS in terms of phase
> noise.
> (Though, I have yet to see actual measurements of this)
The gotcha is that each family gets measured as the parts come out. Thus the
data
is sp
Attila,
On 01/09/2016 09:25 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800
Li Ang wrote:
In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate?
A
In message <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7...@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali
writes:
>Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
better or worse ?
-
On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800
Li Ang wrote:
> In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
> signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
> difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate?
A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done t
Hi
You can use a D flip flop to sample (down convert) a signal. You may or
may not get into metastability problems when you do.
If you treat the gate inputs as -1 and +1 rather than 0 and 1, the XOR is a
multiplier. If you put two signals into the gate and look at the output on a
spectrum ana
Hi Bob,
In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate? Acorrding to my understanding,
to multiply 1bit with another, I should use an AND gate, right?
When
Hi
The board I have uses high speed CMOS single gate XOR’s. They have a pretty good
phase noise floor (-170’s) so they should be pretty reasonable.
Bob
> On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> If your intenti
On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
an over-driven analog part.
Bob
If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it
to the schemati
Hi
If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
an over-driven analog part.
Yes *somebody* should check out a board built that way …. I’ll
let you know when I do.
Bob
> On Jan 7, 2016, at 7:35 AM, A
On 2016-01-07 13:35, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" wrote:
Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
especia
On 1/7/2016 4:35 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer,
ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other
and replacing the current sources by resistors?
How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much
worse than the diode mixer?
On 1/5/2016 12:07 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the
traditional mixer.
Bruce
Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
depends on keeping the
Yes must have been a year or so ago there was a thread I recall that
someone was doing that.
Thats one expensive approach to the problem.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Bruce Hunter via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> I realize this would not measure frequency or pha
I realize this would not measure frequency or phase difference; but has anyone
used a lock-in amplifier to compare two 10 MHz signals -- for example to adjust
a rubidium oscillator to agree with a GPS reference?
Bruce, KG6OJI
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time-nuts mailing list
Sorry I was under the impression I was replying to Don's post.
Sometimes my Windows machine seems to mess up the part of the thread to which
I thought I was replying.
My Linux box doesn't seem to have this problem.
Bruce
On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:26:14 PM Charles Steinmetz wrote:
> Bruce w
Bruce wrote:
You mean DMTD = dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual
mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers /
shift registers instead of a pair of mixers.
I don't see how your comment is relevant to my post -- I did not
mention either DMTDs or DDMTDs. I on
Hi
Ok, so what needs to be done with the output of the mixer (no matter how you do
it)?
Assume you start from 10 MHz and head down to 10 Hz.
Assume you are mad at your 5370 and want significantly better performance.
Where does that get you?
The 5370 already is in the ~ 20 ps range. A lot dep
Poul-Henning wrote:
My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
Why wouldn't a analog multiplie
Hi Poul-Henning,
On 01/06/2016 12:28 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message <568c46b9.4020...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to
jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the
trigger-circuit
In message <568c46b9.4020...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to
>jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the
>trigger-circuit.
Digitize the LPF output and do a curve-fit to find the zero-cr
You mean DMTD = dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual mixer timer
difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers / shift registers instead of
a pair of mixers.
Bruce
On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 12:03 PM, Charles Steinmetz
wrote:
Poul-Henning wrote:
>My little HP506
On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:37:00 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>
> In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>,
Bruce Griffiths writes:
> >The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of
> >the traditional mixer.
> Yes, but d
Poul-Henning,
On 01/05/2016 10:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>,
Bruce Griffiths writes:
The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the
traditional mixer.
Yes, but does that r
Mini-circuits has packaged phase detectors plug-in, surface, and with
connectors for $20 TO $70. Diode bridges with transformers. They also have
cheap wideband amps. Bet a simple DDMTD could be built with these? I know...I
wish I did have the time at present.
Happy New Year!
Don
Magnus Danielson
>
With some sine-to-square conversion as signal conditioning, not too hard
these days, this could be a relatively straight forward approach.
CERN already have digital clocks, so the DDMTD approach fits them well.
For normal mixers you want to signal condition the signal prior to the
mixers, and t
;ve become interested in building a DMTD to overcome the
limitations of my 5370A, but I haven't had time to actually do anything about
it yet.
Bob
From: Bruce Griffiths
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 2:19 PM
Subject: Re:
In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>,
Bruce Griffiths writes:
>The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of
>the traditional mixer.
Yes, but does that really matter in this case ?
The interesting output will be coming
In message
, paul swed
writes:
>I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support
>circuitry especially if single power supply.
The AD835 is 8-pins and as easy as they come I think.
Not needing isolation amps seems like a plus to me.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UN
You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart
from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the
design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
Bruce
On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp
wrote:
My little HP5065 pr
Poul-Henning,
I have some guesses but I look forward to others.
I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support
circuitry especially if single power supply.
I used lower frequency Analog Devices units in early experimentation on the
wwvb d-psk-r.
Granted they worked. They were al
The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the
traditional mixer.
Bruce
On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp
wrote:
My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm loo
My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better
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