On Fri, November 27, 2015 9:37 am, Mike Feher wrote:
> the period of the hyperfine transitions must change as well, to
> make the defined second longer or shorter. So, in these examples the
> elevation does not change the time, but the way the atoms behave.
That gets into a philosophical question
The whole "t" thing was bothering me in John's explanation, so I
showed it to my son the physicist. He tells me that John's
explanation comes from Brian Greene's book, "The Elegant Universe"...
A very popular coffee table book, aimed at the same market as those
by Stephen Hawking.
Greene's expla
Yep, been there, done that... I own a Worden gravity meter.
Gravity mapping is a highly developed technology. Not just Everest, but the
whole planet:
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nut
The reference was probably a bit too obscure for an international audience. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPJqIT7a3qA
-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC
> Hi John,
>
> Thank you very much for this explanation, I found it very "explicative".
> What I am not able to grasp is the sense of the
nning:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=grace+gravity+map
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Sims"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 12:13 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
> Another thing to consider is the gravity anomaly caused by t
Hi
> On Nov 29, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
>
> kb...@n1k.org said:
>> If you dig into the gravity stuff, they get into questions like “do we put
>> in a term for the gravitational effects of Pluto? Yes, there are Gravity
>> Nuts….
>
> Things like that have a significant influence
On 11/29/15 12:13 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
Another thing to consider is the gravity anomaly caused by that hunk of granite
beneath your clock (or above it in a mine). Hmmm, what is the clock shift at
the top of Mt Everest that is due to the mountain and not the altitude?
ginal Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Juges
> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:20 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
>
> Wow. So elegantly simple
Hi John,
Thank you very much for this explanation, I found it very "explicative".
What I am not able to grasp is the sense of the phrase " That second
part was what really baked peoples' noodles". I think that is some
colloquial but not being English my native language I can't figure out
its
s above or below the surface, 1/r and 1/r^2 look
identical. That is, you get the same blueshift: 1.1e-16/meter.
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Howard"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
>
> The mounta
t...@leapsecond.com said:
> I'm not sure I understand your elevation question. Are you talking about
> elevation as in mountain vs. sea level altitude? Or elevation as in
> satellite Az/El?
I was thinking of the elevation of the receiver as in mountain vs sea level.
I think the question I was t
kb...@n1k.org said:
> If you dig into the gravity stuff, they get into questions like âdo we put
> in a term for the gravitational effects of Pluto? Yes, there are Gravity
> Nutsâ¦.
Things like that have a significant influence on planetary orbits. Do they
have a measurable influence on Ea
Another thing to consider is the gravity anomaly caused by that hunk of granite
beneath your clock (or above it in a mine). Hmmm, what is the clock shift at
the top of Mt Everest that is due to the mountain and not the altitude?
_
Wow. So elegantly simple explanation, thanks John!
On November 27, 2015 2:54:51 PM CST, John Miles wrote:
>So, here's how I finally grokked this stuff. c, the speed of light in
>a vacuum, is often spoken of as a "speed limit" that nothing can ever
>exceed. That's a bad way to put it, and people
put in a
term for the gravitational effects of Pluto? Yes, there are Gravity Nuts….
Bob
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Hal Murray"
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 2
"
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
>
> hol...@hotmail.com said:
>> The GPS spec implies the satellites have a fixed frequency offset to
>> compensate for relativistic effects. But do they actually dynamically
The mountain thing has been done.
Someone needs to take their
clock to the bottom of the deepest mine (2.4 miles).
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and follo
hol...@hotmail.com said:
> The GPS spec implies the satellites have a fixed frequency offset to
> compensate for relativistic effects. But do they actually dynamically and/
> or individually adjust the frequency to adjust for orbit variations and
> eccentricities?
Hi
Since you have massive doppler on the signals, it’s not practical to get
frequency directly from the SV’s. All of our
“frequency” information comes from time data extracted one way or the other
from the signal. Either we do it directly
from the broadcast data or indirectly from stuff like c
Hi,
On 11/28/2015 06:05 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
The GPS spec implies the satellites have a fixed frequency offset to compensate
for relativistic effects.
The spec actually points out that explicitly. This is the General
Relativity shift due to different gravitational position of the satellites.
From: "Mark Sims"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 9:05 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
> The GPS spec implies the satellites have a fixed frequency offset to
> compensate for relativistic effects. But do they actually dynamically and/or
> individually
The GPS spec implies the satellites have a fixed frequency offset to compensate
for relativistic effects. But do they actually dynamically and/or individually
adjust the frequency to adjust for orbit variations and eccentricities?
_
ke B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
>> 89 Arnold Blvd.
>> Howell, NJ, 07731
>> 732-886-5960 office
>> 908-902-3831 cell
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart
>> Sent: Friday, No
Of Bob Stewart
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 12:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Hi Mike,
I'm far from an expert on this, but what you're missing is that time and space isn't the
same between any two p
Hi,
On 11/27/2015 05:03 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
They mentioned some "6 miles per day" offset due to GPS relativity effects.
I think this is the sum of both special relativity (time dilation) and
general relativity (gravitational) effects. The GR correction is 45
microseconds a day fast; the SR c
om reading your whole post, time is always moving at
the same rate for the one observing himself.
Bob
From: John Miles
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Or, you could just stay at high elevation for a longer
period of time and make the travel time less significant.
-Chuck Harris
Arthur Dent wrote:
Tom wrote: "I'll make just a one word correction to your
summary. The clocks run a bit faster not because of "the
spinning earth" but because of "the
Tom wrote: "I'll make just a one word correction to your
summary. The clocks run a bit faster not because of "the
spinning earth" but because of "the earth"."
You are correct, I misspoke. While that point may have
been wrong I did check the elevation of Mount Sunapee
and it is indeed at 2726 feet
ople I told them I wasn't interested.
>>
>> /tvb
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Leikhim"
>> To:
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:35 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
>>
So, here's how I finally grokked this stuff. c, the speed of light in a
vacuum, is often spoken of as a "speed limit" that nothing can ever exceed.
That's a bad way to put it, and people who have expressed it that way in
popular science writing for 100 years should feel bad.
Instead, the wa
5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Hi Mike,
It'
831 cell
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa
> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 9:19 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Bob -
Thanks for attempting to make me see the light. But, I still do not. You said
it yourself that hyperfine transitions remain the same. Since "time" on these
device are derived from these transitions, they should also remain the same.
On Behalf Of Bob Stewart
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 12:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Hi Mike,
I'm far from an expert on this, but what you're missing is that time and space
isn't the same betwee
ra people I told them I wasn't interested.
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Leikhim"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:35 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
There is a great special about Einstein on PBS. I think there are two
episodes. I watched o
om that of the clock on the ground.
Bob
From: Mike Feher
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
I just do not get it. I know that now I am 70 and my good sma
Hi Arthur,
That's a good summary. I'm glad you got to visit the mountain. Did you happen
to check the elevation? Are there lodges along the road on the way up?
I ask because at 2726 feet a clock will run 9.0e-14 fast (compared with sea
level), which is 7.8 ns/day, or 31 ns over 4 days. But they
> They mentioned some "6 miles per day" offset due to GPS relativity effects.
> I think this is the sum of both special relativity (time dilation) and
> general relativity (gravitational) effects. The GR correction is 45
> microseconds a day fast; the SR correction is 7 microseconds slow. 38
> micr
AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
Would've been more fun to see Tom and his kids going to the top of Mt Ranier in
2005 with the ensemble :-). http://leapsecond.com/great2005/
They mentioned some "6 miles per day&q
Would've been more fun to see Tom and his kids going to the top of Mt
Ranier in 2005 with the ensemble :-). http://leapsecond.com/great2005/
They mentioned some "6 miles per day" offset due to GPS relativity effects.
I think this is the sum of both special relativity (time dilation) and
general re
riment and when they wanted me to fudge things for their
camera people I told them I wasn't interested.
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Leikhim"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:35 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Einstein Special on PBS
> There is a great specia
In the special it looks like they used two HP5071A standards, an
SRS620 counter, and a scope. They first made sure the stds were
in sync then took one to the building at the top of the ski lift
on New Hampshire's Mount Sunapee at 2726' elevation for 4 days
where it would be running a little faster
There is a great special about Einstein on PBS. I think there are two
episodes. I watched one, near the end there was some definite
time-nuttery going on with portable HP cesium clocks
--
Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
jleik...@leikhim.com
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