On 2004.03.27, 11:12, Philippe Verdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> This becomes evident when composing with extra-space between
>>> letters: there is no "tie" between the first "L" and the dot.
>
> Interesting comment, because I had always thought that this
> middle-dot was a modifier of the prev
- Original Message -
From: "Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: U+0140
> On 2004.03.27, 11:12, Philippe Verdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>&
"IIRC" means "if I recall correctly". So, do speculate at will, but
please do not misquote me!
The substance of "Catalan middle dot vs. hypenation" is interesting
but not relevant for the asked editing of the comments under U+0140 in
the standard.
OTOH, I maintain that Ca
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin a écrit :
However I advise removal of the note "Catalan" under U+0140 and
U+013F, and perhaps replacement of the whole note with «for Catalan
use U+006C U+00B7» (resp. U+004C).
Did you get an answer on this ? Why is there no decomposition associate
Patrick Andries a écrit :
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin a écrit :
However I advise removal of the note "Catalan" under U+0140 and
U+013F, and perhaps replacement of the whole note with «for Catalan
use U+006C U+00B7» (resp. U+004C).
Did you get an answer on this ? Why is th
> [Original Message]
> From: Patrick Andries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> did somewhat mention why U+0140 is even in Unicode since it could
> be considered (by ignorami like me) as a precomposed character
> (l + middle dot) ? Is it due to the polysemy of the middle dot ?
Philippe Verdy a écrit :
From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin a écrit :
However I advise removal of the note "Catalan" under U+0140 and
U+013F, and perhaps replacement of the whole note with «for Catalan
use U+006C U+00
From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin a écrit :
> >>However I advise removal of the note "Catalan" under U+0140 and
> >>U+013F, and perhaps replacement of the whole note with «for Catalan
> >>use U
. :-)
Also, it should be noted that there *is* a decomposition for
U+0140 in the Unicode Character Database, to wit:
0140;LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT;Ll;0;L; 006C 00B7;...
^^
Oops. Looked at the
uld be noted that there *is* a decomposition for
U+0140 in the Unicode Character Database, to wit:
0140;LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT;Ll;0;L; 006C 00B7;...
^^
It is a compati
Philippe opined:
> If there's something really missing for Catalan, it's a middle-dot letter with
> general category "Lo", and combining class 0 (i.e. NOT combining).
The one thing for sure is that the Unicode Standard does not need
to encode more middle dots:
00B7;MIDDLE DOT;Po;0;ON;N;
From: "Kenneth Whistler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Philippe opined:
>
> > If there's something really missing for Catalan, it's a middle-dot letter
with
> > general category "Lo", and combining class 0 (i.e. NOT combining).
>
> The one thing for sure is that the Unicode Standard does not need
> to enco
On 15/04/2004 12:32, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Philippe opined:
If there's something really missing for Catalan, it's a middle-dot letter with
general category "Lo", and combining class 0 (i.e. NOT combining).
The one thing for sure is that the Unicode Standard does not need
to encode more
Peter Kirk a écrit :
What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
is needed for Catalan.
[PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in dictionaries ?
See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/reports/tr14/tr14-6.html
2027
HYPHENATION POINT
Hyphenation point is
On 15/04/2004 15:13, Patrick Andries wrote:
Peter Kirk a écrit :
What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
is needed for Catalan.
[PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in dictionaries ?
See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/reports/tr14/tr14-6.html
202
- Original Message -
From: "Peter Kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Kenneth Whistler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: U+0140
> On 15/04/2004 12:32, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
>
&g
Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Philippe opined:
If there's something really missing for Catalan, it's a middle-dot letter with
general category "Lo", and combining class 0 (i.e. NOT combining).
The one thing for sure is that the Unicode Standard does not need
to encode more middle dots:
00B7;MI
From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Peter Kirk a écrit :
>
> > What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
> > is needed for Catalan.
> > [PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in dictionaries ?
>
> See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/reports/tr14/t
Philippe Verdy a écrit :
From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Peter Kirk a écrit :
What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
is needed for Catalan.
[PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in dictionaries ?
See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/st
At 03:31 PM 4/15/2004, Peter Kirk wrote:
[PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in dictionaries ?
See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/standard/reports/tr14/tr14-6.html
Why are you guys citing the 1999 (!) version of this TR?
It's 2004, Unicode 4.0.1 has been published and we are up to
http:/
> >00B7;MIDDLE DOT;Po;0;ON;N;
> >10101;AEGEAN WORD SEPARATOR DOT;Po;0;ON;N;
> >16EB;RUNIC SINGLE PUNCTUATION;Po;0;L;N;
> I was meaning to ask about this. I'm all over not encoding Yet Another
> middle dot, but I was wondering. In my research on Samaritan, I've
> found
Kenneth Whistler wrote:
00B7;MIDDLE DOT;Po;0;ON;N;
10101;AEGEAN WORD SEPARATOR DOT;Po;0;ON;N;
16EB;RUNIC SINGLE PUNCTUATION;Po;0;L;N;
I was meaning to ask about this. I'm all over not encoding Yet Another
middle dot, but I was wondering. In my research on Samar
* Philippe Verdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-04-16 01:22]:
> > U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA
> wrong form? it's a small square, and is the greek semicolon, and is then
> separating words.
U+0387 is canonically equivalent to U+00B7. About its shape, whether it's
square or round depends on what the full sto
On 15/04/2004 16:22, Philippe Verdy wrote:
...
There are also, including combining middle dots (most of these listed at
U+00B7):
U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA
wrong form? it's a small square, and is the greek semicolon, and is then
separating words.
This should not be a small square; it should
On Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:16 PM, Philippe Verdy va escriure:
> I thought it was already answered in this list by a Catalan speaking
> contributor: the sequence L+middle-dot in Catalan is NOT a combining
> sequence.
No? Then was is it? Looks like very much one, to me.
> The middle dot in Cata
uence.
>
> No? Then was is it? Looks like very much one, to me.
It is more exactly a ligature, not a combining sequence. But the second
character of the ligature works more like a diacritic, and not as a separate
punctuation or symbol.
In some future, we could see U+013F and U+0140 used mo
From: "Antoine Leca" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> And yes, similarly to Catalan, the emphatic/prolongated l sound is not
> usualy marked.
In French, the emphatic/prolongated l (written with a double l) is usually
marked by altering the phonetic of the preceding vowel, such as
- in "collège" where 'o' is
On Friday, April 16, 2004 12:31 AM, Peter Kirk va escriure:
>> Peter Kirk a écrit :
>>
>>> What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
>>> is needed for Catalan.
>>
>> Hyphenation point is primarily used to visibly indicate
>> syllabification of words. Syllable breaks are
ules for it to occur (requiring
> NFC):
I don't see that as being any worse than the set of HYPHEN_MINUS,
HYPHEN, MINUS SIGN, etc., which depending upon your taste in
such matters could be seen as an example of what to do or what
not to do. That said, let me switch the topic to something almos
Philippe Verdy wrote:
- in "collège" where 'o' is often pronounced open, unlike in "colatéral" where
"o" is always closed.
Hmm, "collatéral" is written with two l's in french (from latin cum +
latus).
Bernard
Elaine Keown
Tucson
Hi,
I kept the amazing list of middle dots listed this
week on the main Unicode list for future reference.
Hebrew (Hebrew from 1200 B.C.E. - present) needs
at least 1 middle dot.
Elaine
__
Do
At 12:26 AM 4/16/2004, Alexandros Diamantidis wrote:
* Philippe Verdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-04-16 01:22]:
> > U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA
> wrong form? it's a small square, and is the greek semicolon, and is then
> separating words.
U+0387 is canonically equivalent to U+00B7. About its shape, wheth
oable (as I showed with the
regular expressions), and it is NOT complex.
I was just saying this is presently not done, and it is IMHO not worth
doing.
> Given the nature of U+0140 (and U+013F) when hyphenated, might it
> not be a good idea to assign these two characters their own Line
> Break
On Friday, April 16, 2004 12:37 PM, Philippe Verdy va escriure:
> In some future, we could see U+013F and U+0140 used more often than L
> or l plus U+00B7...
I (personally) hope we would not.
> Notably in word processors that can detect these
> sequences in Catalan text and substitu
At 12:32 -0700 2004-04-15, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Note that while the particular combination <006C, 00B7, 006C> is a
peculiarity of Catalan orthography, U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (often called
a 'raised period') is
very widely used, indeed, in technical orthographies for many
languages, particularly i
Sent the previous message before it was ready.
At 12:32 -0700 2004-04-15, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
Note that while the particular combination <006C, 00B7, 006C> is a
peculiarity of Catalan orthography, U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (often called
a 'raised period') is
very widely used, indeed, in technical o
Michael Everson wrote:
I have had suboptimal connectivity over the last while, and so have
missed some of this discussion. As a type designer I personally consider
the middle dot to be ordinary punctuation that should harmonize with
other punctuation marks. My solution to this is to treat it as
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Kenneth Whistler
> Thanks to Eric and Patrick for digging out my answer on this perennial
> question from a couple years back, and saving me the trouble of
> having to rummage around to find it. :-)
>
On 2004.04.17, 17:03, John Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael Everson wrote:
>> My solution to this is to treat it as the top dot of a colon.
>
> This would make the mid-dot too high. The top dot of the colon
> usually sits toward the top of the x-height; the *mid*-dot should
> sit lower
On 2004.04.16, 14:26, Ernest Cline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> From: Antoine Leca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> ... it is vastly more easy to keep the obvious unification, rather
>> than trying to distort it and trying to make a conditional mapping,
>> if Mathematics, · => U+00B7, if Catalan, · => U
On 2004.04.16, 19:34, Antoine Leca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As I wrote earlier, if you know the text under inspection is
> Catalan, a very simple regular expression will deal with that. Any
> half-decent Catalan word processor do it already, by the way.
What about the odd Catalan phrase withi
At 09:03 -0700 2004-04-17, John Hudson wrote:
Michael Everson wrote:
So for me, MIDDLE DOT is to COLON as MODIFIER
LETTER HALF TRIANGULAR COLON is to MODIFIER
LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON.
This would make the mid-dot too high. The top
dot of the colon usually sits toward the top of
the x-height; th
- Original Message -
From: "John Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: U+0140
> Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > I have had suboptimal connectivity over the last while, and so have
> &
On 17/04/2004 13:57, Philippe Verdy wrote:
...
Who's to blame there? Only software designers that have not offered better
keyboards to enter a regular Ano Teleia on Greek keyboards, or accepted
incorrectly to use the approximation between the middle-dot punctuation and the
Greek Ano Teleia. May b
At 01:54 PM 4/17/2004, Michael Everson wrote:
The samples Asmus sent suggest to me that a school of typographers made a
set of bad decisions, even if they were really famous and got paid lots of
money and their fonts are widely shipped!
In all charity, Michael, your opinion seems to be mainly you
Michael Everson wrote:
This would make the mid-dot too high. The top dot of the colon usually
sits toward the top of the x-height; the *mid*-dot should sit lower,
optically midway up the x-height (which means slightly higher than the
actual halfway mark). The top dot of a colon is typically clo
http://www.macchiato.com
â à â
- Original Message -
From: "Asmus Freytag" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sat, 2004 Apr 17 15:32
Subject: Re: U+0140
> At 01:54 PM 4/17/200
From: "John Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 'Careful hairsplitting' always takes place when people care about
typography.
How very true.
On one hand, there's people who put a cedilla under "a" when typesetting
Polish, on the other hand, there's people who adjust the vertical position
of hyphens whe
John Hudson responded to Michael Everson:
> Michael Everson wrote:
>
> >> This would make the mid-dot too high. The top dot of the colon usually
> >> sits toward the top of the x-height; the *mid*-dot should sit lower,
> > John, I just don't believe you. I don't believe that in all the history
On 19/04/2004 13:03, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
... Those other middle dots give
people textual representation alternatives now, if they need to make
distinctions, and textual rendering alternatives, if they need to make
middle dots which display with slightly different heights, sizes, or
spacings, d
> And if... someone finds a well documented script
> in which a true middle dot and an x-height dot are used contrastively,
That would be a somewhat surprising and not-to-be-recommended design for
a writing system. Not to be completely ruled out, though. But we can
probably wait to cross that enco
Peter Kirk continued this...
> On 19/04/2004 13:03, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
>
> >... Those other middle dots give
> >people textual representation alternatives now, if they need to make
> >distinctions, and textual rendering alternatives, if they need to make
> >middle dots which display with sli
Peter Constable wrote:
And if... someone finds a well documented script
in which a true middle dot and an x-height dot are used contrastively,
That would be a somewhat surprising and not-to-be-recommended design for
a writing system. Not to be completely ruled out, though. But we can
probably wait
At 03:49 PM 4/19/2004, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
The Unicode Standard is not prescriptive about rendering, beyond the
basics required to simply ensure correct mapping of textual content
into streams of characters. If one font vendor wants to have a raised
glyph for the MIDDLE DOT and another wants to
tilingual text.
Furthermore, what is "the right thing" varies from people to people, so
achieving perfection here is a mere dream.
Or are you trying to make the point that inventing a new point for  in
Catalan would bring any added correctness to multilingual texts?
It is certain that t
Elaine Keown
Tucson
Dear Asmus Freytag and Ken Whistler:
I would be pleased if you at Unicode
would choose to further describe your
existing middle dot collection.
I have *no* interest in _more_ middle dots,
enough is enough.
Eventually I hope there *will* be helpful
notes on w
> different from any recommendation that U+0140 is the preferred
> character for the representation of l followed by a middle dot in
> Catalan text.
But it is surely an excellent way to contribute to the (false) idea
that Unicode doesn't serve the need of minority languages. :-( Is it
so
From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Philippe Verdy a écrit :
> >From: "Patrick Andries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Peter Kirk a écrit :
> >>>What is U+2027 intended for? The name suggests that it might be what
> >>>is needed for Catalan.
> >>>[PA] Isn't this the one that should be used in di
On 15/04/2004 18:16, Philippe Verdy wrote:
...
The Catalan middle-dot is a plain orthographic letter and should be treated as
such, and not by borrowing a punctuation sign or symbol which may have other
conflicting uses. What I suggested is that the general category, despite its
weak definition,
s in the typography. Most modern text renderers on
computers display the 00B7 incorrectly for Catalan (notably in user interfaces
and in web browsers).
So, for a typographic point of view, the U+013F and U+0140 ligatures are much
better than their compatibility decomposition. I don't think they
capable of displaying either 00B7 or 2027 correctly if the font is
set up for that, e.g. to display them as ligatures, or to move the dot
depending on context.
So, for a typographic point of view, the U+013F and U+0140 ligatures ...
If these are ligatures, they don't need their own Unicode
At 06:16 PM 4/15/2004, Philippe Verdy wrote:
The other reason is that the middle-dot, being a punctuation, would be
likely to
have extra spacing on both sides, which would make it inappropriate for
rendering Catalan words. Also such punctuation would probably forbid
kerning of
the middle-dot with
On 2004.04.16, 09:40, Peter Kirk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> can you describe to me EXACTLY how the shape and behaviour of the
> Catalan middle dot differs from the behaviour of U+2027 <...> This
> strongly suggests that U+2027 is the appropriate character for
> Catalan.
Apparently U+2027 is ind
* Asmus Freytag <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-04-16 11:28]:
> weight. (See attached sample). If data is normalized, the appearance of ano
> teleia will change (since 0387 will change into 00B7) and users will be
> disappointed.
Yes, I know - I've seen professionally published magazines with the
wron
On 2004.03.26, 23:37, Rick McGowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Unicode Technical Committee has posted new issues for public
> review and comment. Details are on the following web page:
I just added the following to the On-Line Report Form:
> U+0140 : LATIN SMALL LETTER L
> On 2004.03.26, 23:37, Rick McGowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The Unicode Technical Committee has posted new issues for public
> > review and comment. Details are on the following web page:
>
> I just added the following to the On-Line Report Form:
>
> >
, 08 Aug 2002 08:17:18 +0200
> Subject: Re: [esperpentu] Fwd: Is U+0140 (l with middle dot) ever
> used?
> Vi pravas: temas pri memstara signo, ne alglulajxo al antauxa lo.
> Nuntempe en la hispaniaj klavaroj (legxo Majó), temas pri memstara
> signo tajpita per Maj+3. M
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote:
> Hm. But middle dot is not also a letter symbol. It's also used as a
> bullet, a tab filling, even a box-drawing char. Shouldn't Unicode
> provide a way to separate this duality?
It should, and does. Unicode has plenty of bullet operators, hyphen
bullets, dot
On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 11:44:40PM +0100, Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote:
>
> Hm. But middle dot is not also a letter symbol. It's also used as a
> bullet, a tab filling, even a box-drawing char. Shouldn't Unicode
> provide a way to separate this duality?
· has traditionally been used eg in wo
Keld responded:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 11:44:40PM +0100, Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin wrote:
> >
> > Hm. But middle dot is not also a letter symbol. It's also used as a
> > bullet, a tab filling, even a box-drawing char. Shouldn't Unicode
> > provide a way to separate this duality?
>
> · has t
I made a mistake:
> And, yes, L + middle dot + L is indeed used: in a smallish number of
> catalan words, even if the barcelonian [normative] pronunciation
> doesn't distinguish between "L" and "L·L", though it doubles a number
> of other consonants.
This should be the barcelonian [non-normative
Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin scripsit:
> As for the nature of the middle dot, short of a specific code point
> attributed to LATIN LETTER CATALAN MIDDLE DOT, there should be something
> ensuring that this character can be treaded as a letter for all things
> refering to word delimitation (smart sel
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