Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

- Original Message - From: "Adrian Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Karl Dubost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5 Did you notice in your development of an WYSIWYG HTML editor things fr

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

> Did you notice in your development of an WYSIWYG HTML editor things > from the specification that > - were very difficult to implement? > - were missing in the HTML language itself to make it easier to > control the editing? There are a couple of things to note here. Firstly our edit

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

Robert, I hear you ... the idea is really two fold -- the first part is to standardize how web applications access the location information, regardless of how it is determined. The second is to offer a standard way of different location acquiring technologies -- GPS, Wifi positioning, geocoding

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

Ryan Sarver wrote: > > Steve, good points… > > > > It’s also important to remember that this functionality would be an > opt-in system – unlike your cell phone :) The prototype that we are > working on would allow the browser to point to a COM port where it > could find a GPS device or any NMEA-c

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Le 2007-02-21 à 11:34, David Latapie a écrit : I think it'd be useful to have that on rel values (link types) as well. rel="microformat"? The rel attribute is about links. What I meant by that is that I think it would be useful to have a private domain for link types too. It would work

[whatwg] Private class names (was: "several messages about HTML5")

Le 2007-02-21 à 16:58, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Michel Fortin wrote: t that, I would like to suggest that the current text be changed to reserve class names starting with a dash "-" for private use. That way that we would have a pool of class names which are guarantied to not be taken ov

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

Hi adrian, Le 22 févr. 2007 à 07:15, Adrian Sutton a écrit : As someone who writes a WYSIWYG HTML editor for a living - I wish you the very best of luck, you're going to need it. Writing an editor is one of those problems that seems really easy until you get into it, then it starts looking

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

> I am therefore devoting a lot of my time into developing a > new kind of authoring environment that combines a semantic view with > a wysiwyg view, and which will use dictionaries to generate the > markup that few of us can be bothered to write directly. As someone who writes a WYSIWYG HTML edit

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

Steve, good points... It's also important to remember that this functionality would be an opt-in system - unlike your cell phone :) The prototype that we are working on would allow the browser to point to a COM port where it could find a GPS device or any NMEA-compatible device or software.

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Michel Fortin wrote: t that, I would like to suggest that the current text be changed to reserve class names starting with a dash "-" for private use. That way that we would have a pool of class names which are guarantied to not be taken over later when new predefined class names are added.

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

At 16:18 +0200 UTC, on 2007-02-21, Henri Sivonen wrote: > On Feb 21, 2007, at 07:14, Sander Tekelenburg wrote: [...] >> My feeling is that many people can understand and work with that >> slightly abstract concept, but they need tools that make it easy. > > People also need to believe that they

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Elliotte Harold wrote: > Authorial intent is a myth. Presumably you don't mean that authors don't have intents, but rather than authorial intent is ultimately irrecoverable. That's true, but it's not necessarily an especially useful truth (in this context). All communication involves translation

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

That's a good point. I think you're right that the "navigator" object might make more sense: // Example var location = navigator.getLocation() alert(location.latitude+', '+location.longitude); thoughts? From: Steve Runyon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Vlad Alexander (xhtml.com) wrote: Is it due to a flaw in HTML that it is difficult to build authoring tools, such as WYSIWYG editors, that generate markup rich in semantics, embody best-practices and can be easily used by non-technical people? Since much of the content on the Web is created u

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

There are obvious privacy concerns -- I feel they can be alleviated with the proper level of control for the user. Currently in our prototypes, the browser prompts the user for each request, which they can allow or deny and then remember that preference for subsequent requests from that domain. Wha

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Ian Hickson wrote: The original reason I got involved in this work is that I realised that the human race has written literally billions of electronic documents, but without ever actually saying how they should be processed. That's a feature, not a bug. If, in a thousand years, someone fou

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

James Graham wrote: Even in cases where the content really is well formed XML the client is entirely the wrong place to enforce validity -- it means that a tiny mistake causes suffering for the person least able to deal with the problem -- the end user. Needless to say this is terrible UI and

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

On Feb 21, 2007, at 22:31, Ryan Sarver wrote: What are people’s thoughts on location in the browser? My first thought is that it is a privacy problem. And per-site configurability of the exposure of location data is a user interface problem. -- Henri Sivonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hsiv

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

At 09:29 + UTC, on 2007-02-21, James Graham wrote: [...] > The difficult problem is not to produce an editor that encourages the > use of semantic markup, it is to produce an editor that encourages the > use of semantic markup and would be chosen in preference to e.g. MS > Frontpage or Dreamw

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

David, The ICBM standard is for geotagging the actual content whereas we are talking about a standard that lets the content know the location of the User or device so that the website can be location-aware. I want to use as much of the existing standards, but have more questions about where it

Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:31:11 -0500, Ryan Sarver wrote: > - would it make sense to also expose it in the request headers? This > way the server receives it on the first request as opposed to through > the client after the initial page request > > > > User-Geolocation: 43.338018, -71.817930 Sur

[whatwg] Geolocation in the browser

Hey guys. I have been watching the list for a bit and thought it was time for me to jump in here and kick off a discussion on geolocation-aware browsing. I tried to search through the archives to see if the discussion had come up before and didn't find anything, so please forgive me if it has.

Re: [whatwg] X/HTML5 and DocBook

David Latapie wrote: Hello, I never used it, but a common complaint about DocBook is that there is too much tags. Now, considering how microformats seems to be the Next Big Thing™ (and we are talking quite a lot on this ML about this technology), could someone with a background in DocBook t

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: James Graham wrote: Obviously I would love to be proven wrong but given the limited success in this field in the last decade, I'm not holding my breath. What actual attempts have been made in this field, that could be judged relative successes or failures? The b

Re: [whatwg] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Shlomi Asaf wrote: > > i have a "table" like layout. > here is a live example: http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/floatingDivs.htm I'm afraid you have posted to a mailing list where we discuss future plans for HTML, not where we discuss Web design problems. However, we have

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, David Latapie wrote: > > > > It's the first really open, collaborative community that has taken on > > a task of this magnitude > > AFAICR from Daniel Glazman’s ParisWeb 2006 conference, before W3C, > IETF [HTML WG] was really open too -- problem seemed to be it was too >

[whatwg] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

Hi i have a "table" like layout. here is a live example: http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/floatingDivs.htm all the floating divs has the same height. i haven't written the height in the css- the content is the same. all the titles are one line height. but what happens when one title is longer?

Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:45:14 -0500, Michel Fortin wrote: > What about nested definition lists like all those found in the HTML5 > spec? Would you replace them by nested tables or a bizarre > organisation of cells using rowspan and colspan? And would it still > be intelligible? Yes and Yes. Cont

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:47:50 +0100, Charles McCathieNevile wrote: > As people got printers and desktop publishing a > few people made the crazy multi-font unreadable pages that were all > the rage in the mid-80s Same goes for the newspaper industry for the first part of the 20th century --

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:28:16 +0200, Henri Sivonen wrote: > Actually, the fact that many native English speakers cannot write > "it's" vs. "its" or "they're" vs. "their" vs. "there" correctly > suggests that people have a tendency to think in terms of aural > *presentation* of the language instea

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:10:42 +0100, Anne van Kesteren wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:56:56 +0100, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I don't say so just for nitpicking, but would also appreciate feedbacks >> from people who were already there by IETF times; what are the >> difference betw

Re: [whatwg] Thoughts on the element (formerly the element).

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:51:46 +1100, Lachlan Hunt wrote: >> | >> | XForms is a W3C recommendation. >> | >> | XForms Tiny is does not conflict with XForms, but WF2 does. >> | > > Interesting. The concept of specifying who added a particular mark > using the |by| attribute could be useful

Re: [whatwg]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:19:43 +0100, Martijn wrote: > 2007/2/21, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> I never understood what is done for. Is it some kind of >> precursor of Google Sitemaps? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element > " > … (deprecated) > >The :isindex element requires s

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:56:30 -0500, Michel Fortin wrote: > Le 2007-02-20 à 19:05, Ian Hickson a écrit : > >> The proposal to have predefined class names is still very much in the air, >> we're mostly waiting for author and implementation feedback to see if it >> is workable. Currently the HTML5 sp

Re: [whatwg] Input field's hint value

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:28:47 +0100, Wolfram Kriesing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there already such a thing? I think Webkit supports a placeholder="" attribute on elements that does this. Since Web Forms 2 is in a feature freeze it hasn't yet been added / rejected. I suppose it might be

Re: [whatwg] The HTML5 outline algorithm and Selectors

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:51:20 +0100, Henri Sivonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there any coordination between the WHATWG and CSS WG for allowing selector matching based on the outline depth as per the HTML5 outline algorithm? Or is there perhaps already a way? (My knowledge of developments

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:56:56 +0100, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't say so just for nitpicking, but would also appreciate feedbacks from people who were already there by IETF times; what are the difference between “IETF time” and “WHATWG time” in the way of working? Newsflash:

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:05:47 + (UTC), Ian Hickson wrote: > * Radical new benefits to offset the pain of change > * Backwards-compatibility with the old technology I agree. > It's the first really open, > collaborative community that has taken on a task of this magnitude AFAICR from Daniel

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Feb 21, 2007, at 16:39, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Henri Sivonen wrote: I think device independence and accessibility are worthwhile goals. Semantic markup and separation of content and style are not essential in themselves but just a means of pursuing the other goals. Those aren't the

Re: [whatwg] The HTML5 outline algorithm and Selectors

* Henri Sivonen wrote: >Is there any coordination between the WHATWG and CSS WG for allowing >selector matching based on the outline depth as per the HTML5 outline >algorithm? Or is there perhaps already a way? (My knowledge of >developments related to Selectors isn't quite up-to-date.) No.

[whatwg] The HTML5 outline algorithm and Selectors

Is there any coordination between the WHATWG and CSS WG for allowing selector matching based on the outline depth as per the HTML5 outline algorithm? Or is there perhaps already a way? (My knowledge of developments related to Selectors isn't quite up-to-date.) For example, to use CSS3 GCPM

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: Dave Raggett wrote: I am therefore devoting a lot of my time into developing a new kind of authoring environment that combines a semantic view with a wysiwyg view, and which will use dictionaries to generate the markup that few of us can be both

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Henri Sivonen wrote: > I think device independence and accessibility are worthwhile goals. > Semantic markup and separation of content and style are not essential > in themselves but just a means of pursuing the other goals. Those aren't the /only/ goals of semantic markup and separation of c

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Feb 21, 2007, at 07:14, Sander Tekelenburg wrote: That's not a flaw in HTML, because it is essential to HTML that it separates content from presentation. I think device independence and accessibility are worthwhile goals. Semantic markup and separation of content and style are not essent

Re: [whatwg] Input field's hint value

Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:28:47 +0100, Wolfram Kriesing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I was searching, but didnt find a hint-attribute for an input. The more often we are using inline editing, the more the need for the following is rising, imho: From the semantic standpoint,

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

Dave Raggett wrote: > I am therefore devoting a lot of my time into developing a > new kind of authoring environment that combines a semantic view with > a wysiwyg view, and which will use dictionaries to generate the > markup that few of us can be bothered to write directly. This project sound

Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?

What about nested definition lists like all those found in the HTML5 spec? Would you replace them by nested tables or a bizarre organisation of cells using rowspan and colspan? And would it still be intelligible? Here are two examples:

Re: [whatwg]

2007/2/21, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: I never understood what is done for. Is it some kind of precursor of Google Sitemaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element " … (deprecated) The :isindex element requires server side support for indexing documents. Visually presents a one-l

Re: [whatwg] New markup constructs

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:30:59 +, Gervase Markham wrote: > James Graham wrote: >> [1] http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html > > What a useful URL. I second you on this. For those who did not follow the link, it shows: “Which class names are used on the most pages? Here are the to

Re: [whatwg]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:56:05 +0100, Anne van Kesteren wrote: > On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:52:12 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler >> Are there any real-world uses of remaining? Is this >> element worth the trouble? > > Yes. And it's not much trouble... I never understood what is done for. Is it some kind

Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:13:25 +0100, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Accessorily, I believe there is a need for an equivalent of for . marks a term to define, but what is the marker for its definition? "The paragraph, description list group, or section that contains the dfn eleme

Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:52:23 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler wrote: > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:40:13 +0100, David Latapie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> My humble point: can do everything can, whilst the reverse >> is not true. He who can do more can do less. > > canot do this: > > > computer > An

Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:23:53 -0500, Matthew Raymond wrote: > This whole thread is as silly as saying that we > should replace with because can express the same > structure. Structure is important, but it's only half of the equation. So you recognize the thread it NOT silly ;-) Let me explain:

Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

Thanks Charles for that really inciteful response. I very much agree with the need to get authoring tool support for semantically richer markup. Microformats are great - but how many people find that they can't be bothered with that level of detail, especially when using a wysiwyg style of edit

[whatwg] X/HTML5 and DocBook

Hello, I never used it, but a common complaint about DocBook is that there is too much tags. Now, considering how microformats seems to be the Next Big Thing™ (and we are talking quite a lot on this ML about this technology), could someone with a background in DocBook tell me (us) how X/HTML5

[whatwg] Private class names (was "several messages about HTML5")

Le 2007-02-21 à 4:41, Gervase Markham a écrit : Surely it would make much more sense to have all the predefined class names start with a dash? After all, XHTML5 is not yet standardised, whereas people have been using all sorts of random class names for years - but, I suspect, mostly without

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Anne van Kesteren wrote: The analogy I tried to make (apparently it failed) is that design decisions for C/C++ are not necessarily good for HTML. Right. But they aren't necessarily bad either. What is wrong with picking a clean rather than a dirty namespace for predefined class names? Or does

Re: [whatwg] Input field's hint value

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:28:47 +0100, Wolfram Kriesing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was searching, but didnt find a hint-attribute for an input. The > more often we are using inline editing, the more the need for the > following is rising, imho: > > > > The text "Enter your title here" is shown

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Gervase Markham wrote: (I guess I'm making an underlying assumption here that there aren't loads of existing pages on the web using HTML 5 predefined class names while expecting HTML 5 rendering and semantics for them. But, unless I'm missing something, that seems like a reasonable assumption.)

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:33:36 +0100, Gervase Markham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't see how the analogy holds. Why is using a fairly clean namespace for predefined class names instead of a well-used one the same sort of thing as having HTML parsers stop at the first error? The analogy I

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:41:12 +0100, Gervase Markham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Surely it would make much more sense to have all the predefined class names start with a dash? After all, XHTML5 is not yet standardised, whereas people have been using all sorts of random cl

[whatwg] Input field's hint value

I was searching, but didnt find a hint-attribute for an input. The more often we are using inline editing, the more the need for the following is rising, imho: The text "Enter your title here" is shown as the value while no value is given, or when the field is empty, upon focusing the element

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

James Graham wrote: > Obviously I would love to be proven wrong but given the > limited success in this field in the last decade, I'm not holding my breath. What actual attempts have been made in this field, that could be judged relative successes or failures? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

[whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:40:09 +0100, Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Vlad Alexander (xhtml.com) wrote: >> Thank you Ian. Just one follow-up question. You wrote: >> >>> ...We could require editors to do this, but since nobody knows how >>> to do it, it would be a stupid requirement. ... >>

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:41:12 +0100, Gervase Markham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: About that, I would like to suggest that the current text be changed to reserve class names starting with a dash "-" for private use. That way that we would have a pool of class names which are guarantied to not be

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Michel Fortin wrote: About that, I would like to suggest that the current text be changed to reserve class names starting with a dash "-" for private use. That way that we would have a pool of class names which are guarantied to not be taken over later when new predefined class names are added.

Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5

Lachlan Hunt wrote: It's not so much a flaw in HTML's design, as it is the refusal of popular WYSIWYG editor vendors to replace common presentational UIs, such as font styles and colours, with much more useful semantic UIs. I don't believe it's particularly difficult to achieve. The difficul