William -- if allowing Gregg to continue his tirades means you will leave the group, so be it. I will be sorry to see you go. But I don't think we should censor Gregg.
Anne
On 3/2/06, Gervas Douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I look forward to the day when military staff colleges refer to the
debates in this Group when looking for instruction and inspiration.
Gervas
--- In [email protected], William Henry
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Okay has anyone else had enough of this? Is this the Jini list or the
> SOA list?
>
> I've tried to ignore this Java centric stuff, as I know others have
> too. We do this in the hope not to get drawn into tedious fruitless
> arguments. I've watched several people try to teach that there are
> other technologies in the world that we must deal with in SOA and
> that Java will NOT be acceptable in those environments. Not that Java
> can't solve the problem but because it's not appropriate. Heck many
> of us could integrate everything in C, or Perl or even assembly
> language but we wouldn't because it's not appropriate in many places.
> Our "teachable" remarks have often been met with ... well more Jini.
>
> Java is a wonderful language. I've developed in it many times since
> 1995/96 (recently doing some JBI stuff) Jini may be wonderful - I may
> never know because I've been put off looking further into it. But
> many of the rest of us work in large enterprise environments where
> there is lots of heterogeneity. And we want to integrate natively
> with that environment in a high performance way. The idea about SOA
> is that all technologies should be able to participate as first class
> citizens. We should not have to wrap everything in one technology/
> language.
>
> To those of you implementing SOA with Jini then maybe the Jini advise
> is good. I'm certainly no expert in Jini. There is a Jini group that
> much of this advice would be more appropriate on: http://
> groups.yahoo.com/group/jini_javaspaces/. Perhaps this advise is
> already been posted and maybe ignored there. To those of you
> implementing SOA in a more heterogeneous environment, be cautious.
>
> If I've offended people I'm sorry but I can't sit back and just
> ignore this. I was enjoying learning and sharing on this group and
> then noticed I'd stopped watching it more because I was getting
> bombarded with Jini and missing the important SOA discussions.
>
> Gervas if I'm no longer welcome on this group then fair enough.
>
> William
>
>
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>
> > Spork, Murray wrote:
> >>> I would hope that I could just do a Jini lookup using the
> >>> interface named BuyCheddarCheese.
> >>
> >> But this way we would have to agree on the names of every single
> >> complex
> >> type - whereas the alternative and more decoupled approach is
> >> where we
> >> only have to agree on the names of the atomic concepts and on the
> >> operators that we use to compose them. Some refer to "minimal
> >> ontological comittment" to describe this.
> >
> > I want to buy cheddar cheese. When I go to the store, there are a
> > bunch of gray
> > boxes with no labels that I have open to find out whether I've got
> > the box of
> > cheddar cheese right? And, I also don't have to whack of a bit to
> > chew on and
> > hope that I got the cheddar cheese, and not the orange bacterial
> > culture.
> >
> >> Less formal pattern-based approaches really try to achieve the same
> >> thing - i.e. "duck typing".
> >>
> >> There are well-known tradeoffs of course.
> >
> > Duck Typing involves type modification based on type analysis, not
> > the lack of
> > typing.
> >
> >>> This is an important design issue. Is it more important that
> >>> goods can travel the network or the transaction?
> >>
> >> I don't understand this point.
> >
> > Are we shipping cheese around the network or are we using the
> > network to perform
> > a transaction to buy cheese? It's the transaction that needs to be
> > performed!
> >
> > Thus, I would choose a service interface named BuyCheddarCheese
> > instead of
> > BuyGoods that received a Goods parameter that was CheddarCheese
> > extends Goods.
> >
> > If I wanted to find the Schwanns food companies service, and ask
> > for inventory
> > and look it over to select a product, that's where Goods would be
> > fine. But in
> > my example, I specifically need to find the CheddarCheese.
> > BuyCheddarCheese
> > might just be an implementation of the interface BuyGoods, whose
> > implementation
> > is aimed at the system methods for purchasing CheddarCheese.
> >
> > public interface BuyGoods extends Remote {
> > public double buy( int quantity )
> > throws InvalidTransactionException, IOException;
> > }
> >
> > public interface BuyCheddarCheese extends BuyGoods {
> > }
> >
> > This is an example implementation just to show how the typing can
> > be applied in
> > an execution path that is separate from the interface definition.
> > Thus, this
> > interface is very generic, yet it is strongly typed to allow
> > precise matching to
> > occur.
> >
> > public class CheddarCheeseImpl implements BuyCheddarCheese {
> > private Patron patron;
> > Vending vend;
> > public CheddarCheeseImpl( Patron pat, Vending vend ) {
> > this.patron = pat;
> > this.vend = vend;
> > }
> > public double buy( int quantity ) {
> > FoodProduct fp = vend.getProduct( FoodProduct.CheddarCheese );
> > Transaction trans = vend.getTransaction( patron );
> > Order ord = fp.placeOrder( trans, quantity );
> > double price = order.getCost( pat );
> > if( patron.canPay(price) == false )
> > throw new PriceExceededException(price);
> > trans.commit();
> > return price;
> > }
> > }
> >
> > Somehow I have to know who is selling cheddar cheese. Searching
> > through
> > 10,000,000 vendors lists of products is insane. I should be able
> > to through out
> > a type based query.
> >
> > On Google, you don't open a web page and search with your eyes through
> > 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 documents. You use a "type" based
> > query giving it
> > the type of information that you want. The type mapping system is
> > faulty
> > thought, because its not strict. So, you won't always get what you
> > want, and
> > you can't guarantee that every day, the query you ran yesterday
> > will provide the
> > same results.
> >
> > Only through specific typing systems can production software make
> > exacting
> > requests and have well formed requirements that can be met.
> >
> > My observation is that a lot of the friction around strict typing
> > comes from
> > people implementing poor type systems and also from them using
> > insufficiently
> > rich technologies to allow typing to not be a barrier.
> >
> > The people implementing really strict typing languages are, from my
> > perspective,
> > the people that grew up with the UNIX shell environment in the 70's
> > and 80's and
> > learned all about how bad "everying's a string" can be.
> >
> > Gregg Wonderly
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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