Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Trolling for flames

[Keith Harrison-Broninski]

Hi Jerry I do agree with you about the unfortunately limited application of systems theory to management in many businesses, though ideas such as those of Senge and Capra have had some influence. However, I can't agree with you about removing iteration!  Iteration is not just caused by system errors or poor communication of requirements, it is caused by changing business needs and evolving business processes.  The ascendance of Agile methodologies in almost every field bear witness to the effectiveness of bringing interation to the forefront and basing development practices around it. In fact, making an analogy with living systems, evolution is just a form of iterative development, isn't it ... -- All the best Keith http://keith.harrison-broninski.info Jerry Zhu wrote: --- Keith Harrison-Broninski wrote: Yes, exactly - though I assume by "doing things right" you don't mean trying to build the perfect system first time round (an impossibility for various reasons), but rather trying to collaborate /effectively/ in an ongoing system development process. I do mean build the perfect system (not best but error free system) first time round. Really. It is the "ongoing system development" that trubles me for the waste on the predicable and avoidable errors. RUP uses iterations to correct errors (ongoing systems development?) that takes 80% of developers' time according to NIST. I do agree with your "impossibility" for today's prevailing worldview and associated methodologies. Herbert Simon (inventor of hierarchy theory, Norbel Laurate) proved mathematically that hierarchies will evolve much more rapidly from elementary constituents than will non-hierarchic systems containing the same number of elements. Today's business approach is based on mechanistic worldview rather than living systems' worldview. The problem is neither in technical nor in the process but the worldview, our conception of the world. When our worldview is out of date our behavior they drive is out of date. Best regards Jerry Zhu SPONSORED LINKS Computer software Computer aided design software Computer job Soa Service-oriented architecture YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS  Visit your group "service-orientated-architecture" on the web.    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.