On 26/02/07, Jan Algermissen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Monday, February 26, 2007, at 05:15PM, "Dennis Djenfer" <[EMAIL > PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hi Jan, > > > >It seems like you're saying that a message is self descriptive if it's > >standardized, right? > > If the payload and the remotely invoked operation both are standardized, > then a mesage is self descriptive. IOW, if it is completely understandable > without ever seeing the receiver or any interface description provided by the > receiver.
So this means that it a) isn't in XML b) that both sides have a shared ontology c) is heavily documented It does seem a trifle "optimistic" to think that complex financial or partner trading documents are ever going to be "self describing" under your definition. The moment someone has to ask a question then it ceases to be self describing. To me it sounds like "self describing" is a technology dream, rather than being a recognition of how the world works. > > > > >I'm curiouse about your defintion of a self-descriptive message: > >Is an order message that follows a schema that has been defined by OASIS > >UBL self-descriptive? > > here the remote operation is missing ( is the UBL order placed? or canceled? > or archived? or indexed?) > > Assuming HTTP POST, then yes. > > >Is an order message that follows a schema that has been negotiated > >out-of band between many organizations in a specific business domain > >self-descriptive? > > Again assuming HTTP POST, then IMHO, yes. ake the court trial example to > analyze the self-descriptiveness. Is a schema that has been negotiated > out-of band between many organizations in a specific business domain > sufficient to prove the senders intent. IMHO, yes. > > >Is an order message that follows a schema that has been negotiated > >out-of band between two organizations self-descriptive? > > as a special case of the above, yes. But the out of band negotiation might > not be as valuable as if there are meny parties' views mingled in it. > > >Is an EDI message that follows a structure that has been defined by an > >EDI standard organization self-descriptive? > > Not sure about EDI (lack of knowledge), but IIRC from what I saw when I took > a short look it seemed so. I guess EDI also defined a uniform process-this > (POST) kind of operation, yes? > > Jan > > > > > > >// Dennis > > > >> Jan > >> > >> > >> [1] You can of course also abuse those to tunnel commands > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Eric > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: Jan Algermissen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:53:27 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Pizza Order Surprises > >>> > >>> > >>> Eric, > >>> > >>> your posting 'deserves' a more detailed reply, so sorry for only > >>> sending a short comment (I still have a pile of work on my desk for > >>> tonight). > >>> > >>> On 25.02.2007, at 18:23, Eric Newcomer wrote: > >>> > >>>> It is just hard to believe that the lack of uniform interfaces in > >>>> SOAP and WSDL is the cause of all the disconnect with the Web. > >>> > >>> The lack of a uniform interface (the plural doesn't really make sense > >>> here, does it?) is contrary to the architectural style of the Web. > >>> That is just an undebatable > >>> fact. An architecture that does not employ a uniform interface can > >>> never be of the REST style and an architecture that does not > >>> specifically constrain itself to > >>> HTTP's set of methods on all objects is necessarily disconnected from > >>> the Web. > >>> > >>> Jan > >>> > >>> > >>> (And, yes, GET /foo/lauchMissile is not HTTP's GET, it is tunneling > >>> the launchMissile invocation through GET) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Bored stiff? > >>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49935/*http://games.yahoo.com> Loosen up... > >>> Download and play hundreds of games for free > >>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49935/*http://games.yahoo.com> on Yahoo! > >>> Games. > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: > 2007-02-25 15:16 > >> > > > > >
