Gregg, Why make an absurd point like this? I seriously doubt Anne would suggest anything of the sort for a real time MMO. Yet she is making a valid point for the majority of iApps that are focused on information sharing and authoring.
I'd note that World of Warcraft (I am a regular raider) makes heavy use of HTTP and URIs, through add ons and the armory, both of which are essential to the game experience. WoW also does not use UDP, it uses TCP for its protocol. Same goes for other systems with custom protocols, like BitTorrent. HTTP and URI provide signaling. cheers Stu Sent from my iPad On 2010-04-07, at 11:04 AM, Gregg Wonderly <[email protected]> wrote: Anne, are you suggesting that Blizzard Entertainment Inc., if they port World-of-Warcraft to the iPad, should convert to using HTTP and URIs so that the lag response will be reduced and the users will have a much better experience than they have now on desktop/laptop devices? Can you provide some details of how HTTP provides less lag than UDP does, and how TCP resend delays are no longer a problem in real-time multi-media systems because HTTP is used on top of TCP? Gregg Wonderly Anne Thomas Manes wrote: Responding to this specific comment: "HTTP and URI (which isn't REST) " Well, actually, HTTP and URI *is* REST. Or at least it's the essence of REST. All interfaces, all interesting bits of information, all interactions, and all application workflow in a RESTful application are driven by HTTP and URIs. As Stefan Tilkov says, REST is using HTTP as it was intended. REST is: * Everything of interest has an identifier and the format of those identifiers is uniform (e.g., a URI) * Every identified resource supports a uniform API (e.g., HTTP methods) * The application uses hypermedia to coordinate application state and the process flow (HATEOAS) REST is entirely about HTTP and URIs. If you intend to support the iPad as a UI device for your service, you should design the service so that client applications can interact with it using HTTP and URIs. Anne On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Steve Jones <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On 6 April 2010 17:29, Stuart Charlton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Long time no see. comments inline Internet issues in Oz. Sent from my iPad On 2010-04-05, at 1:44 PM, Steve Jones <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: The other piece that the iPad/iPhone has really demonstrated is how rarely services are actually re-used between multiple areas in the "web". Sure there are a bunch of twitter clients but most people using Facebook seem to use the standard Facebook app and most other server/consumer applications are equally tied to a specific server side implementation that is used by only one client set. Whether these elements use REST, SOAP or anything else is irrelevant as they are tied applications in a more client/server style mode than a "web" mode. The web currently is an extension of a client/server architecture... whether the client is a browser or a dedicated client is somewhat immaterial. Agreed, but this isn't the "vision" that is preached around the web architecture pieces. For me the iPhone really demonstrates how little there genuinely is of the "web" application model and how in reality we are still at a technical client/server model with clients tied to servers. IMO part of this is driven by REST and its lack of proscribed documentation thus making interfaces obscure to anyone other than those who wrote it. I wont disagree that there is a lack of documentation.... but are you seriously claiming that crappy REST API's are responsible for why there are so many iPhone apps instead of just relying on browser-based apps? I think its part of it, but not on the iPhone apps v browser based but on the "tied" model of client/server rather than one service multiple clients (twitter aside). The iPhone/iPad do not demonstrate that REST rules, arguably they prove quite the opposite, they prove that a client/server model with proprietary APIs rules and that the "power" of the web is trumped hugely by a closed garden model. Last I checked, the best and most widely used application on the iPad was Safari. The multitouch web experience is easily the biggest draw on these devices. And that all of the apps, music, or vids you download from iTunes are available via hyperlinks that can be communicated and shared with others. And that nearly every application grabs its content from servers via HTTP and URI, and can allow you to copy those URIs and use them elsewhere. Not disagreeing but there is a jump from HTTP/URIs and REST as an architectural approach. I don't disagree that HTTP and URIs are absolutely key here. Yes, there are plenty of proprietary APIs layered on top of those standards. Time will hopefully help to standardize new media types where they are needed. But don't hold your breath on that one, its been 5+ years that people have been talking about that stuff and what progress has been made? What the iPhone and iPad does is show the Web is not just about browsers. I think you are confusing the politicized process of HTML standards development with architecture. How can the world suddenly adapt all platforms to a new UI paradigm? It takes time to standardize deployed practice. The flood of iApps are an expected occurrence because a piece of the Web, HTML, has to catch up. Yet both HTTP and URI remain crucial (if incomplete) to the user experience on these devices. It is completely disingenuous to claim this is all proprietary client/server. It is, at worst, partially proprietary. Like most evolving information exchange protocols... What I'm saying is that while HTTP and URI (which isn't REST) are critical to the user experiences the actual service implementations are effectively proprietary (or partially proprietary if you like) in that a given server side implementation has a fixed client side. There isn't really an new UI paradigm, the iPhone, beyond things like multi-touch, is "just" a rich client platform and people are building client/server applications in the same way they always have by developing them together with the express purpose of them being used as a coherent lump that just happens to be split between a client and server. Its great that we've moved to a common protocol like HTTP and have a common approach like URIs but the "vision" of service assembly hasn't been delivered in reality by REST in anyway shape or form. So just to be clear HTTP/URIs are a good thing and are used pretty much everywhere 99% of iPhone/iPad apps are developed in a client/server mindset in the same way as client/server applications were developed 20 years ago. Steve Stu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift?* Give the gift of Flickr!* <http://www.flickr.com/gift/> ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/
