Stuart, Anne stated: > If you intend to support the iPad as a UI device for your service, you > should design the service so that client applications can interact with > it using HTTP and URIs.
To me, that is not a "closed" statement. It is open ended, suggesting that HTTP and URIs are the answer for all types of apps. Sure they help out a lot for WOW addons and do all kinds of things to let people specify where "document" kinds of resources are. But for realtime, streaming, multi-faceted applications (MMO games and other apps as well), they are worthless because that is not how data is generated nor how it flows. In an MMO, as you know, every player is a server generating events that every other player has to see, and no SINGLE server is in control of how the "session" proceeds, except for the fact that we have to have the "WOW" server gatewaying everyones events to all the players. It is the HTTP/REST focus on "single session" and "single server" control that is greatly hampering and limiting how the internet is used. There could be much more experiential, real time experiences to be had if there wasn't this idea of "resources" and "URI" and "hosts" that have become so concrete. Gregg Wonderly Stuart Charlton wrote: > > > Gregg, > > Why make an absurd point like this? I seriously doubt Anne would suggest > anything of the sort for a real time MMO. Yet she is making a valid > point for the majority of iApps that are focused on information sharing > and authoring. > > I'd note that World of Warcraft (I am a regular raider) makes heavy use > of HTTP and URIs, through add ons and the armory, both of which are > essential to the game experience. WoW also does not use UDP, it uses TCP > for its protocol. > > Same goes for other systems with custom protocols, like BitTorrent. HTTP > and URI provide signaling. > > cheers > Stu > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2010-04-07, at 11:04 AM, Gregg Wonderly <[email protected] > <mailto:gergg%40cox.net>> wrote: > > Anne, are you suggesting that Blizzard Entertainment Inc., if they port > World-of-Warcraft to the iPad, should convert to using HTTP and URIs so > that the > lag response will be reduced and the users will have a much better > experience > than they have now on desktop/laptop devices? > > Can you provide some details of how HTTP provides less lag than UDP > does, and > how TCP resend delays are no longer a problem in real-time multi-media > systems > because HTTP is used on top of TCP? > > Gregg Wonderly > > Anne Thomas Manes wrote: > > Responding to this specific comment: > > "HTTP and URI (which isn't REST) " > > Well, actually, HTTP and URI *is* REST. Or at least it's the essence of > REST. All interfaces, all interesting bits of information, all > interactions, and all application workflow in a RESTful application are > driven by HTTP and URIs. As Stefan Tilkov says, REST is using HTTP as it > was intended. > > REST is: > > * Everything of interest has an identifier and the format of those > identifiers is uniform (e.g., a URI) > * Every identified resource supports a uniform API (e.g., HTTP methods) > * The application uses hypermedia to coordinate application state > and the process flow (HATEOAS) > > REST is entirely about HTTP and URIs. > > If you intend to support the iPad as a UI device for your service, you > should design the service so that client applications can interact with > it using HTTP and URIs. > > Anne > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Steve Jones <[email protected] > <mailto:jones.steveg%40gmail.com> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:jones.steveg%40gmail.com>>> wrote: > > On 6 April 2010 17:29, Stuart Charlton <[email protected] > <mailto:stuartcharlton%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:stuartcharlton%40yahoo.com>>> > wrote: > > Long time no see. comments inline > > Internet issues in Oz. > > Sent from my iPad > > On 2010-04-05, at 1:44 PM, Steve Jones <[email protected] > <mailto:jones.steveg%40gmail.com> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:jones.steveg%40gmail.com>>> wrote: > > The other piece that the iPad/iPhone has really demonstrated > is how rarely services are actually re-used between multiple > areas in the "web". Sure there are a bunch of twitter clients > but most people using Facebook seem to use the standard > Facebook app and most other server/consumer applications are > equally tied to a specific server side implementation that is > used by only one client set. Whether these elements use REST, > SOAP or anything else is irrelevant as they are tied > applications in a more client/server style mode than a "web" > mode. > > The web currently is an extension of a client/server > architecture... whether the client is a browser or a dedicated > client is somewhat immaterial. > > Agreed, but this isn't the "vision" that is preached around the web > architecture pieces. > > For me the iPhone really demonstrates how little there > genuinely is of the "web" application model and how in reality > we are still at a technical client/server model with clients > tied to servers. IMO part of this is driven by REST and its > lack of proscribed documentation thus making interfaces > obscure to anyone other than those who wrote it. > > I wont disagree that there is a lack of documentation.... but > are you seriously claiming that crappy REST API's are > responsible for why there are so many iPhone apps instead of > just relying on browser-based apps? > > I think its part of it, but not on the iPhone apps v browser based > but on the "tied" model of client/server rather than one service > multiple clients (twitter aside). > > The iPhone/iPad do not demonstrate that REST rules, arguably > they prove quite the opposite, they prove that a client/server > model with proprietary APIs rules and that the "power" of the > web is trumped hugely by a closed garden model. > > Last I checked, the best and most widely used application on the > iPad was Safari. The multitouch web experience is easily the > biggest draw on these devices. And that all of the apps, music, > or vids you download from iTunes are available via hyperlinks > that can be communicated and shared with others. And that > nearly every application grabs its content from servers via HTTP > and URI, and can allow you to copy those URIs and use them > elsewhere. > > Not disagreeing but there is a jump from HTTP/URIs and REST as an > architectural approach. I don't disagree that HTTP and URIs are > absolutely key here. > > Yes, there are plenty of proprietary APIs layered on top of > those standards. Time will hopefully help to standardize new > media types where they are needed. > > But don't hold your breath on that one, its been 5+ years that > people have been talking about that stuff and what progress has been > made? > > What the iPhone and iPad does is show the Web is not just about > browsers. I think you are confusing the politicized process of > HTML standards development with architecture. How can the world > suddenly adapt all platforms to a new UI paradigm? It takes > time to standardize deployed practice. The flood of iApps are > an expected occurrence because a piece of the Web, HTML, has to > catch up. Yet both HTTP and URI remain crucial (if incomplete) > to the user experience on these devices. It is completely > disingenuous to claim this is all proprietary client/server. > It is, at worst, partially proprietary. Like most evolving > information exchange protocols... > > What I'm saying is that while HTTP and URI (which isn't REST) are > critical to the user experiences the actual service implementations > are effectively proprietary (or partially proprietary if you like) > in that a given server side implementation has a fixed client side. > There isn't really an new UI paradigm, the iPhone, beyond things > like multi-touch, is "just" a rich client platform and people are > building client/server applications in the same way they always have > by developing them together with the express purpose of them being > used as a coherent lump that just happens to be split between a > client and server. > > Its great that we've moved to a common protocol like HTTP and have a > common approach like URIs but the "vision" of service assembly > hasn't been delivered in reality by REST in anyway shape or form. > > So just to be clear > > HTTP/URIs are a good thing and are used pretty much everywhere > 99% of iPhone/iPad apps are developed in a client/server mindset in > the same way as client/server applications were developed 20 years ago. > > Steve > > Stu > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for the perfect gift?* Give the gift of Flickr!* > <http://www.flickr.com/gift/ <http://www.flickr.com/gift/>> > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! 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